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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Muhammad as a partner with Allah Post Reply Post New Topic
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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2009 at 4:10am
Originally posted by Ron Webb


Of course he is not a partner to Allah.  What I am saying is that you make him a partner by making his hadith a partner to the Quran,and by making his earthly political authority a partner to the eternal divine authority of Allah.


 Quran says that we must follow not only Quran but also Sunnah.

 Let us now consult the clear verses from the Quran which affirm the validity and importance of the hadiths, here is the first piece of evidence:

 

4: 59- O you who believe! Obey Allh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.


 As you can see here, Allah commands us to obey the prophet Muhammad; the verse makes it very clear that the 2nd highest authority is that of the prophet Muhammad, basically his Sunnah! Notice the verse says if we have any problems or differences we should first refer to Allah, meaning the Noble Quran, and then the verse also says we should also refer to the prophet Muhammad, which basically means the Sunnah. And now I ask where do we find the Sunnah? We find it in the hadiths! But the Quranis say the hadiths are false, which obviously contradicts this verse, and which shows that they do not completely obey the Quran as they claim to, had they obeyed the Quran they would then be following the hadiths as well.

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2009 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Hayfa

Ron, I I think it is just different views.. like "making his earthly political authority a partner to the eternal divine authority of Allah."
Yes, I am expressing my view, and obviously it is a different view from the majority of Muslims.  What I am trying to learn is how Muslims justify their view, and in particular, if shirk doesn't mean sharing Allah's power and authority with another entity, then what do Muslims think it means?
 
We have leaders that is a given. 
We have human leaders, political and social leaders, etc.; but surely that is a different kind of leadership than the eternal, divine authority of Allah.  The power and authority of a human leader normally ends with his tenure in office, and certainly with his death.  Only Allah's power and authority is eternal, and He shares that with no one. 
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2009 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

4: 59- O you who believe! Obey Allh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.


 As you can see here, Allah commands us to obey the prophet Muhammad; ...

 
As I replied to truthnowcome about this verse yesterday, Allah could not have meant the same kind of obedience that we owe to Allah Himself because to do so He would be sharing His power and authority with Muhammad, and IMHO that would be shirk.
 
However, after looking more carefully at the verse, I would like to add a further observation about the syntactic structure. 
 
The command to obey is given in two distinct clauses.  The first clause, "Obey Allah", stands by itself; Allah shares His eternal divine authority with no one.  The second clause, "Obey the Messenger and those ... in authority," is a shared obedience that we owe to all earthly leaders, including Muhammad and anyone else in a legitimate position of authority.
 
So if you believe that this verse commands all mankind to obey Muhammad until the end of time, then you must accept that this same degree of obedience applies to all men in authority, which is surely nonsense.


Edited by Ron Webb - 11 October 2009 at 8:52pm
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2009 at 12:53am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

 
As I replied to truthnowcome about this verse yesterday, Allah could not have meant the same kind of obedience that we owe to Allah Himself because to do so He would be sharing His power and authority with Muhammad, and IMHO that would be shirk.


 No where in the verse Allah says that he is sharing his power and authority with Muhammad.

 And explain what is same kind of obedience?

 If i am obedient to my parents it means it is shirk?Even Allah says we must be obedient to our parents.So where is shirk?Explain it?

 If muslims are obedient to Muhammad(and they must be) then explain how it is shirk?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

However, after looking more carefully at the verse, I would like to add a further observation about the syntactic structure. 
 
The command to obey is given in two distinct clauses.  The first clause, "Obey Allah", stands by itself; Allah shares His eternal divine authority with no one.  The second clause, "Obey the Messenger and those ... in authority," is a shared obedience that we owe to all earthly leaders, including Muhammad and anyone else in a legitimate position of authority.
 
So if you believe that this verse commands all mankind to obey Muhammad until the end of time, then you must accept that this same degree of obedience applies to all men in authority, which is surely nonsense.


 Here is what Ibn Kathirs tafsir says concerning this verse:

 
The Necessity of Referring to the Qur'an and Sunnah for Judgment

 
Allah said,

 
((And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger). Mujahid and several others among the Salaf said that the Ayah means, "(Refer) to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger.'' This is a command from Allah that whatever areas the people dispute about, whether major or minor areas of the religion, they are required to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah for judgment concerning these disputes. In another Ayah, Allah said,

 
(And in whatsoever you differ, the decision thereof is with Allah). Therefore, whatever the Book and Sunnah decide and testify to the truth of, then it, is the plain truth. What is beyond truth, save falsehood This is why Allah said, u

 
(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.) meaning, refer the disputes and conflicts that arise between you to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment. Allah's statement,

 
(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. ) indicates that those who do not refer to the Book and Sunnah for judgment in their disputes, are not believers in Allah or the Last Day. Allah said,

 
(That is better) meaning, referring to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment in various disputes is better,

 
(and more suitable for final determination.) meaning, "Has a better end and destination,'' as As-Suddi and several others have stated while Mujahid said, "Carries a better

So as you can see the very first Muslims even affirmed that the Sunnah must be followed which is basically found in the hadiths!


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Quote Meditations Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2009 at 1:58am
Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

SubhanAllah! Salams Mediations.


We Alaykoum AsSalam wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh Akhe Abdullah
( My grandfather name is Abdullah as well Smile )


Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

This takes me back to a reply from one of the Christian members that said the Bible(Engil)was like the Hadith first I thought no,but know I think that it is similar since those closes to Prophet Muhammad(SAW) wrote the Ahadith just like they say the ones closes to Jesus(As)wrote the Engil.


This could be true in theory, but if put in practice, the current bible comes no where close to even the least authentic category of hadith, authentication wise that is
Even this least authentic category ( very weak ) we know some sort of a chain between the narrator and the Prophet ( PBUH ), we know their degree remebrance, or if there was a break in the chain

The current bible, the old testmanet for instance we really have almost no knowledge of who wrote it, when, where did they hear it from , and the earliest scripture is over a 1000 year old
It would be similar to someone coming in our modern times and saying , Prophet ( PBUH ) said so and so , without any reference to where he got this from
This would be a laughable action I would say

And God knows best

AsSalam Alaykoum
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2009 at 8:57am
Salams Meditations,just like "they say" the ones closes to Jesus(As)wrote the Engil.You right what you said if this was true. Meditations, Im sorry for the misspelling of your name brother.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2009 at 11:03am

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

No where in the verse Allah says that he is sharing his power and authority with Muhammad.

I agree, and that is why I am saying that the authority that Muhammad and other human leaders must be different in some way from the authority of Allah (as the syntactic structure of the verse implies). 

And explain what is same kind of obedience?

 If i am obedient to my parents it means it is shirk?Even Allah says we must be obedient to our parents.So where is shirk?Explain it?

Many years ago when I was a small child my grandfather warned me to stay away from the stove, and I obeyed him.  Should I continue to obey him?  If here were alive, I could ask him, but unfortunately he is not.  However, I'm fairly sure that that command was only meant for me as a child, so I feel free to use the stove whenever I want (but not nearly enough to suit my wife Wink).

Fourteen hundred years ago Muhammad told his contemporaries that they should have beards.  Should all Muslims continue to obey him?  Most likely he intended the beard to distinguish Muslims from polytheists (and I believe there is a hadith that suggests that).  Today, however, the beard sends a much different message.  Beards are associated not so much with Islam as with Islamism -- the kind of fundamentalist extremism that flies airplanes into buildings.

I'm fairly sure that if Muhammad were alive today he would think it more important to distinguish peaceful Muslims from that kind of hatred and violence.  He might very well command Muslims not to have beards.  In any case, beards are not mentioned in the Quran, which we know is perfect and complete.  If Allah left it out of the Quran that can only be because it is not essential to Islam.

So as you can see the very first Muslims even affirmed that the Sunnah must be followed which is basically found in the hadiths!

And undoubtedly the very first Muslims (Muhammad's contemporaries) were right to follow the hadiths, since Muhammad's commands were directed to them.  But Muhammad was not speaking to you, and there is no reason to assume that his words were intended to apply to you -- any more than my grandfather's words to me as a child were ever intended to apply to me as a man.  Only Allah, and only Allah's authority, is eternal.

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2009 at 11:07am

 To Ron Webb

 Topic:Obeying the Prophet Muhammad

One of the fundamental principles in Islam is that Muslims obey the prophet Muhammad, obey him in what he has ordered, and obey him in what he has forbidden.This fundamental principle is stipulated in the Quran itself:


5:32 Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

 

4:59: O you who believe! Obey Allh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.


This rule is stipulated in many more verses, but the above 2 should be enough for now.Why Muslims submit to the prophet Muhammad, in the rules and orders he has made, in what he has forbidden and what he has made legal, is because God himself has commanded us to!Hence when a Muslim obeys the prophet Muhammad, he is obeying none other than God because God has told us to obey the prophet. To disobey the prophet Muhammad is to disobey God because you have not followed God's order, which is to obey the prophet Muhammad.


For instance when God commanded Iblis to bow to Adam, Iblis refused, and God condemned him for refusing to bow, because he had directly contradicted and disobeyed God's command. Does this mean that if Iblis bowed to Adam, would it mean that Adam was equal to God? Off course not, it would simply be Iblis submitting his will to God, by following God's rule and command.


So therefore our submission and obeying the prophet Muhammad is a submission to God because we are directly obeying God's command by him commanding us to obey his final and last messenger.


Secondly, the reason why the Muslims obey the prophet in his Sunnah, what he has enjoined and what he has forbidden, is because the Sunnah is from God! The Sunnah rules of the prophet Muhammad are not his own personal desires, rather they are from God himself:

 Narrated Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib:

 The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Beware! I have been given the Qur'an and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say: Keep to the Qur'an; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited. Beware! The domestic ass, beasts of prey with fangs, a find belonging to confederate, unless its owner does not want it, are not permissible to you If anyone comes to some people, they must entertain him, but if they do not, he has a right to mulct them to an amount equivalent to his entertainment. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 40, Number 4587)

As you can see the prophet Muhammad made it clear that he was given the Quran AND something that is like it, and that something else happens to be the Sunnah.Notice how the prophet even goes on to warn people against heretics who will only go by the rules of the Quran and ignore the Sunnah that the prophet has been given.

Just go look around you today and you will find these heretics everywhere, we know them as Qurani's, a false title it must be said, as these people don't even follow the Quran as the Quran commands the Muslim to follow the Sunnah! Hence the true Quranis are the True Muslims who follow the Quran and hold fast to the Sunnah! These heretics should be given a new title; we should call them the rejecters, not the Quranis.

So back to the point, the Sunnah is from Allah, it is not the Prophet Muhammad's personal desires, rather he has been taught these rules, and they have been given and taught to him separately from the Quran.

This is exactly and directly why when you obey the prophet, you are obeying God, because what the prophet has, and what he is telling you pertaining to the religion is all from God! This is why God himself has told you this:

004.080
YUSUFALI: He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).

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