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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 11:58am

Originally posted by Meditations

This is the islamic view about humans as well, that they are not immune from errors / mistakes, but we have exception to that, which is Prophets

Also insulting even though is a wrong thing, is not blasphemous, with the exception of Prophets as well

Calling them prophets instead of partners changes nothing.  The point is that you attribute to them the characteristics that are inherent to gods, but not to men.  To me, that is "making partners" with Allah.  (And if that is not what it means, I wonder what it does mean?)

you decide to insult the messenger whom you believe is from God, this implies insulting God

If I send you a package by courier, and you insult the courier, does that imply that you are insulting me?

Yes, God could, but since we're talking logical without relying on a script then let's use pure logic
First we're not talking about any man reciting, it's the person who's assigned the task of delivering the message

what you're suggesting that he's not infallible this opens a window of probabilities...

I don't know what point you're trying to make with all of this, since we agree that a person does not have to be infallible in all things in order to recite the Quran correctly.  As you said, even some children can do it.

The same logic used above can be used for actions thats related to Islam

Except that it would be extraordinarily unlikely for a person never to make an error in his entire life, and you have no evidence that such is the case for Muhammad or any other prophet.

I think ( have to double check ) Actions related to everyday life is a negotiable topic between scholars, whether infallibility applies to just the teachings of the religion or everyday actions as well

The very fact that it is a "negotiable" topic should tell you something.  Scholars (who are indisputably not infallible) endlessly pick through the hadith, arguing about which ones are strong or weak, which are religious and which are not, which are authentic and which are forgeries.  My understanding is that Islam's main "claim to fame" over the other world religions is that it is (allegedly) based on the literal word of God, communicated without error and without human intercession.  If that is a reason to accept the Quran, then surely it is a reason to reject the hadith.


Nevertheless, it's unarguable that Prophet Muhammad is the role model in all aspects of life

Not "the" role model, just a role model.  An excellent one, according to the Quran, but not the only possible one.  He is certainly not an ideal role model for women, for example.  As for "all aspects of life", I don't see why that is unarguable.  If Muhammad went about on a horse or a camel, do we all have to ride horses and camels?


Originally posted by Ron Webb

and authority that transcends time and space.

Every messenger had such authority until the time of the messenger that comes after him

Is there any evidence of this, or is it just what you were taught?

First : If you know arabic , you would know the arabic word in the verse 'letubayen' implies making clear in a form of explaning, some translators simply use the word explain instead of making clear

If you read the whole passage you will see that Allah is talking about earlier apostles, who were sent "with clear arguments and scriptures", which had become corrupt (i.e., unclear) over time; and now Allah was sending the Reminder (the Quran) to explain (make clear) those earlier arguments and scriptures.  The Quran is the explanation of those scriptures.  If Muhammad needed to add his own explanation of the explanation, then the Quran was not perfect and complete, was it?

Second : What in reciting would cause something that's unclear to become clear ? or something that's not understood to become understood
If I don't understand a verse and it's recited to me 10 times, I still won't understand it

And if you read the hadith ten times, you might still not understand that either.  Then what?  An explanation for the explanation of the explanation? 

If you don't understand something in the Quran, then by all means read the hadith, or talk to an imam or a friend or anyone else who might be able to help you; but then go back to Allah's own words, the only authoritative explanation, and verify your understanding there.

Third : that's not how the Prophet ( PBUH ) understood the Qur'an, nor the companions did, and surely the one who received the message is the best one to understand it , correct ?

Perhaps; but the best one to explain it is Allah Himself.

It is true that Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) forbade some companions in the early days of Islam to write his own words, but he later allowed some companions to do so such as Abdulllah ibn Amr in Al'As

So much for Muhammad's commands being true for all time then.  If Muhammad were alive today, how many more of his commands would he abrogate or rescind?

unimportant to who ?
it was important to the Prophet ( PBUH ), and the companions and to all muslims that came afterward

Unimportant to Allah, or He would have put it into the Quran.  A great many things were important to the Prophet but not to me, and vice versa (e.g., he didn't need to know how a computer works, and I don't need to know how to ride a camel).

What's in prayers, fasting, zakah, hajj varies from different times and circumstances ?

The traditional rules for prayers and fasting are impossible to follow north of the Arctic Circle, where the sun never sets or rises for months at a time.

In prayers ( salat ) we read Qur'an then bow down, what might happen that cause this to be the other way around ?

I have no objection to tradition. What I'm saying is that if it's not in the "complete and fully detailed" Quran, then Allah obviously doesn't care.  What might happen if it you did it the other way around?  Do you think you'd go to Hell or something?  Is your God really that shallow?

As mentioned before, the rule to follow the messenger is a general rule
If you want to apply exceptions, you need proof for that exception

And as I mentioned before, it is impossible to literally "follow" a person who is long dead.  Even when he was alive, do you imagine a long line of Muslims in single file, literally "following" him around all day?  Of course not.  One has to read and understand it in context, and the context is his function as a messenger, delivering and following the Quran.

We think of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) as the best leader to follow
Do you know of a better leader to follow ?

Just about anybody who is not dead.  A leader needs to evaluate and respond to present circumstances.  Looking 1400 years into the past is not leadership.

By following His teachings and applying it to matters of dispute in our times, this is how muslims understood this verse since the early days, for surely Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) wasn't present every place there was muslims

That is not Muhammad judging.  That is somebody else judging, informed by the past actions and judgements of Muhammad.  Again, the judge has to evaluate and respond to the facts of whatever he is judging -- something that a dead man cannot do.

Muslims don't think of hadith in this broad general way, it's categorized in so many categories, ranging from authoritative to some that are not authoritive at all

Rather like the Christian Bible, wouldn't you say? Smile

May God guide us all to the righteous path

But first, may intellect guide us to the true God.  (Or not.) Wink

Salaam.

 

 

 

 

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 12:05pm

 Subject:Muhammad is not partner of Allah.

 Yes he is not.There is not a single Quranic verse or authentic Hadith which claims that Muhammad is partner of Allah.

 Quran and Hadith are very clear on this matter that Muhammad is only slave of Allah.
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 12:11pm
Ron Webb says:To me, that is "making partners" with Allah.Ron have you lost you mine I have read quite a few of your post and I thought that you were smarter than this.
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 12:23pm

  Ron Webb says:To me, that is "making partners" with Allah.

 
What do you say it doesnot carry any weight.You have to prove with Quran or authentic Hadith that Muhammad is partner of Allah(which he is not and Quran and authentic Hadith confirm that he is only slave of Allah)

 
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 Subject:Muhammad is not partner of Allah.

 Yes he is not.There is not a single Quranic verse or authentic Hadith which claims that Muhammad is partner of Allah.

 Quran and Hadith are very clear on this matter that Muhammad is only slave of Allah.
 
Of course he is not a partner to Allah.  What I am saying is that you make him a partner by making his hadith a partner to the Quran, and by making his earthly political authority a partner to the eternal divine authority of Allah.
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 4:30pm
Ron, I I think it is just different views.. like "making his earthly political authority a partner to the eternal divine authority of Allah."

We have leaders that is a given.  The basic idea is that when we pray, we pray to Allah.   And Islam as opposed to other faiths, where much information is no longer out there, is a complete system- not just about belief, but how to act, rules of war etc.  Muslims DO believe in structure and organization. That it is not just strictly about what you believe.

i feel that is why Islam IS so strong as the structure is there.

And no where have I heard that Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) can create the world or is responsible for our lives.

And no where do men or women pray to a statue or are pictures allowed.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah.  I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did.  I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture.  Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself?

 

Salaam to all!

 

Br. Ron, Let me see if this could answer your contention:

 

 

  The sunnah is also revelation from Allah (S) but is separate from the Quran. I’ll quote couple verses then explain it for you. It is mentioned in the Qur’an 4:113 But for the Grace of Allah to thee and his Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only Lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the "Book and wisdom" and taught thee what thou Knewest not (before): And great is the Grace of Allah unto thee.

Walawla fadlu Allahi AAalayka warahmatuhu lahammat taifatun minhum an yudillooka wama yudilloona illa anfusahum wama yadurroonaka min shayin waanzala Allahu AAalayka alkitaba waalhikmata waAAallamaka ma lam takun taAAlamu wakana fadlu Allahi AAalayka AAatheeman Qur’an 4:113

 

In that verse Allah (S) has send down two things the "book and wisdom"



Also in Q.2:151 (Y. Ali) A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge.

Kama arsalna feekum rasoolan minkum yatloo AAalaykum ayatina wayuzakkeekum wayuAAallimukumu alkitaba waalhikmata wayuAAallimukum ma lam takoonoo taAAlamoona Q.2:151 (Y. Ali)

Again: Q.2:129 (Y. Ali) "Our Lord! send amongst them an Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

Rabbana waibAAath feehim rasoolan minhum yatloo AAalayhim ayatika wayuAAallimuhumu alkitaba waalhikmata wayuzakkeehim innaka anta alAAazeezu alhakeemu Q.2:129 (Y. Ali)

  Here again, two thing: …Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things. Q.2:231 (Y. Ali)

…wala tattakhithoo ayati Allahi huzuwan waothkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum wama anzala AAalaykum mina alkitabi waalhikmati yaAAithukum bihi waittaqoo Allaha waiAAlamoo anna Allaha bikulli shayin AAaleemun

   Commenting on the above verses Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee's said: "Allah has mentioned that 'the book' (Al-Kitaab) which is the Quran and he mentioned 'The wisdom' (al- Hikmah) and I have learnt from the people of knowledgr that  'al- hikmah' is the Sunnah of Allah's Messenger (S). And it is from the mercy of Allah (S) that He sent to us a way of practice what is in the Quran."  (Shaafe’ee, Resaala page 44-45; Sibaa’ee, As-Sunnah page 50)
 
The Prophet (S) conforms it when he said: “Varily I was sent with the Quran an something similar to it ( the sunnah).” (Ahmad 4/131)

 

You see that now? Those statements conforms “both” the Qur’an and the Sunnah are Revelations from Allah (S).

 

 

   After mentioning that, let us look at this verse: Q.16:44 (Y. Ali) (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

 

Bialbayyinati waalzzuburi waanzalna ilayka alththikra litubayyina lilnnasi ma nuzzila ilayhim walaAAallahum yatafakkaroona Q.16:44 (Y. Ali)

بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (16:44)

 

 

  The word there is “Dhikr” means “reminder” and is miss translate as Qur’an some time. The Scholars of the salaaf explained that when Allah (S) used the term “Dhikr (reminder)” He Allah (S) is referring to “both” the Quran and Sunnah because both are “Reminder” and it (alkitaba waalhikmata / The Book and the wisdom) came from Allah (S) so both are revelations. They agreed that the best translation should be “Revelations”. Above it is translates as “The Message” which also mean both the Quran and the Sunnah because both are messages from Allah (S).

 

And Allah (S) said: “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).” Q.15:9 (Y. Ali)

Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikra wainna lahu lahafithoona Q.15:9

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ (15:9)

 

 Both the Qur’an and Sunnah are guarded!

 

 

  Now that we understood that both are revelations from Allah (S) look what Allah (S) instructed the Prophet (S) to do, read:And we have revealed the Book (al-kitaab) unto thee only that thou mayst "explain" unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.”  Q.16:64
 

  In the above verse Allah (S) only mentioned “the Book (al-kitaab)” and he said: “we have revealed the Book (al-kitaab) unto thee only that thou mayst "explain" unto them that wherein they differ…”

 

  Who has to explain the Qur’an? The Messenger (S)! And what is the explanation of the Qur’an? The Sunnah! Allah described it as the “Wisdom” of the Qur’an: …Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things. Q.2:231 (Y. Ali)

 

 

  In this verse it reads: (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain” clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought. Q.16:44 (Y. Ali)

 

  That would mean: Qur’an explain Qu’ran, Sunnah explain Qur’an and Sunnah explain sunnah; and because both are revelations from Allah (S) He said: “He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).” 4:80 (Y. Ali)

 

You see my friend according to the above verse obeying the messenger is not shirk!

 

It mentioned in Q.3:31 (Y. Ali) Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

 

  It Mentioned in Q.4:59 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

 

  In that verse, you see the verb (obey)? It applies only to Allah and the Messenger (S) not the people of authority, Allah (S) and the Messenger (S) is to be Obey at all times: “It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path”. Q.33:36 (Y. Ali). However, the people of authority does not have to be obey at all times because if they go against Qur’an and sunnah we can disobey them and that is because Allah (S) did not say obey the people of authority, instead he said: “’and’ those with authority”.

 

Note: The people of authority are the scholars!

 

THE WARNING: If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge! Q.4:115 (Y. Ali)

 

 

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. Q. 4:65 (Y. Ali)

 

 

  Remember I’ve showed you that the “Wisdom (Hikma)” is the sunnah that came down from Allah (S)? Look what He Allah (S) says here: He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.” 2:269 (Y. Ali)

 

Yutee alhikmata man yashao waman yuta alhikmata faqad ootiya khayran katheeran wama yaththakkaru illa oloo alalbabi

 

  When He Allah (S) said: “He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth” It is not our wisdom (Hikma), it is the Hikma of the Messenger (S) which is the Sunnah which is the explanation of the Qur’an or the understanding the Qur’an. And the one who receive the wisdom (Hikma) is he who understood the Quran and sunnah and implement it: (and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing).

 

 

 

 

Br. Zainool

 



Edited by truthnowcome - 10 October 2009 at 10:00pm
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 10:59pm

Originally posted by truthnowcome

In that verse Allah (S) has send down two things the "book and wisdom"

Does the Book not contain wisdom?  Are they not the same?

You see that now? Those statements conforms “both” the Qur’an and the Sunnah are Revelations from Allah (S).

So the Quran is not "complete and fully detailed"?  It needs the Sunnah as a supplement?

Who has to explain the Qur’an? The Messenger (S)! And what is the explanation of the Qur’an? The Sunnah!

As I pointed out to Meditations, if you read the whole passage you will see that it is talking about earlier revelations from previous prophets, which had become corrupt.  Muhammad was sent the Quran in order to explain where the people differed, i.e. had strayed from those earlier teachings.  In other words, it is not the Quran that is in need of explanation.  The Quran is the explanation of the earlier corrupt revelations.  He couldn't be explaining where they differed from the Quran, because they hadn't even received the Quran yet.

In that verse, you see the verb (obey)? It applies only to Allah and the Messenger (S) not the people of authority

So Allah and the Messenger are partners in authority over the people? 

No, Allah does not make partners.  The only divine authority the messenger has is by virtue of the message that he carries from Allah.  Any other authority he might have would be only the usual authority of an earthly political leader, which does not extend beyond his term of office, and certainly not beyond his lifetime.

By the way, I'm not sure why it's relevant to the discusion, but the verb "obey" obviously applies to all three predicates: Allah, the messenger and the authorities.  If not, then what syntactic role or semantic purpose does the reference to authorities have in the sentence?  Just what are we being told about authorities, if not to obey them?  "Obey Allah, obey the messenger, and, umm, uh, something-or-other about the authorities???"

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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