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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 7:02pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Originally posted by Ron Webb

What makes them divine, in my opinion anyway, is the claim that his power and authority extend throughout all time and space.  No mortal has such authority; only a god could make such a claim.  Or a partner to God.
As far as I know no Muslim has ever made such a claim regarding the Prophet.

I assume then that you would disagree with honeto's statement (Oct. 5, 7:18 p.m.): "... the prophet is His chosen person to lead mankind toward the right, till the end of time."  But you do believe that the Prophet's words in the Hadith remain authoritative for all time, don't you?

I certainly didn't say that the words of any man could surpass the Word of God. Once again, I don't believe any Muslim here is saying that either. What I am saying is that some explanation of the divine revelation would almost certainly have been necessary as opposed to you stating that the Prophet was not to add any type of explanation.

Well, just to be clear, I didn't say he was ordered not to explain.  I said that he was not ordered to explain.  The Quran itself contains all the explanations that are necessary; otherwise it would not be complete and perfect.  In fact, I believe it states in at least one place that Allah made it easy to understand.  Moreover, he was certainly ordered not to add anything to the Quran.
I am not saying that the Prophet did a better job of explaining God's Law, since God created the Law to begin with, I am merely stating that the Prophet explained the Law. Just as all Prophets and Messengers before him.

And so have innumerable imams and other leaders, but their explanations are not authoritative, i.e. they can be questioned, disputed or re-interpreted; nor are they universal.  In other words, they are not holy scripture.  More importantly, the hadiths go well beyond mere explanation.  They add all sorts of rules, penalties, interpretations and other details not found in the Quran.

Sign*Reader mentioned prayers as an example.  I'm eagerly awaiting his further comments on the subject, but I expect he is going to tell us all sorts of particular instructions in the hadith about how and when to pray.  What I'm saying is that any such instructions are not authoritative.  They do not come directly from Allah, and do not necessarily apply for all time.  There may have been particular reasons (cultural, historical, practical) why Muhammad recommended them.  We don't know.  What we do know is that if they are not included in the Quran, then they are not an essential part of Islam.

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 7:07pm

Originally posted by Meditations

Originally posted by Ron Webb

To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy.
This is not unique to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), to insult ANY Prophet / messanger is to commit blasphemy in Islam
Originally posted by Ron Webb

He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine.
This is also not unique to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), all Prophets are infallible in matters of doctrine

Whether they apply to all prophets or just to Muhammad, these are two attributes that are shared only with God, and not with other men.

it's a logical thing
if they can't deliver a correct message, then they're not fit for the task in hand

I am willing to accept for the sake of argument that Muhammad delivered the "message" of the Quran correctly (notwithstanding the controversy over the so-called Satanic verses); but there is no logical reason, nor anything in the Quran, to suggest that Muhammad was correct in everything he said or did.

Originally posted by Meditations

Originally posted by Ron Webb

How can I tell that you are not committing shirk?
If you put a clear definition of what you consider shirk, then maybe we can answer this question

Actually, the point of my question was to ask what you would consider shirk.  Obviously if you explicitly claim that Muhammad is a partner to Allah, then that is shirk; but if you treat him as a partner in most other ways, i.e. if you attribute to him most of the attributes of a partner, is that not still shirk even if you deny it?



Edited by Ron Webb - 07 October 2009 at 7:09pm
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 7:50pm

 



Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 08 October 2009 at 7:26pm
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Quote Meditations Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 5:56am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Whether they apply to all prophets or just to Muhammad, these are two attributes that are shared only with God, and not with other men.

And how did you decide that these two attributes should only be attributed to God ?
Note that these attributes are 'given' from God to the Prophets, it's not a self standing attributes
It's also given to other creatures as well if God wishes
The attribute of infallibility for instance is given to the angels whom deliver God's messages / revelations to humans

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I am willing to accept for the sake of argument that Muhammad delivered the "message" of the Quran correctly (notwithstanding the controversy over the so-called Satanic verses);

The term 'satanic verses' can be a variety of issues, if you want to discuss it please start a new topic , so this topic remains in track

Originally posted by Ron Webb

but there is no logical reason, nor anything in the Quran, to suggest that Muhammad was correct in everything he said or did.

I'm not sure what are you basing your statement upon

The logical reason, is that if God kept the Prophets vulnerable to errors, then the message they are sent with would be lost, or the role model they are representing would be incorrect

The reasons from the Qur'an

[52:48]So be patient ( O Prophet ) with your Lord's decree ( to deliver His message ) For you are ever under (the care of) Our (watchful) eyes

[53:3] Nor does he speak out of whim.
[53:4] This is nothing but a revelation being revealed to him

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Actually, the point of my question was to ask what you would consider shirk.  Obviously if you explicitly claim that Muhammad is a partner to Allah, then that is shirk; but if you treat him as a partner in most other ways,

I still don't get what are the 'most other ways' ?
so far you mentioned only insulting being blasphemy and being infallible

Originally posted by Ron Webb

i.e. if you attribute to him most of the attributes of a partner, is that not still shirk even if you deny it?

Well, we need to know what you consider to be most of the attributes of a partner to start with, then we can see if we're attributing it to Prophet Muhhammad ( PBUH ) ?

I'll tell you some attributes that muslims DO NOT attribute to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) that is unique to God which are not shared with any creature, no matter how high their status is

Self existence
Creation by self power ( not by another power )
All knowing
All Sustaining
Self subsisting

Also note that God has so many attributes, which can be categorized into 3 main categories

Attributes of Majesty : such as  King above all, Overpowering , Sublime / Supreme , Irresistible
Which we are required to NOT act with it, though we can if we want ( by being arrogant, overpowering people for instance ..etc.)

Attributes of Perfectionism : such as All knowing, Creator, All Living, Self sustaining
Which we can not act with it even if we tried ( unless someone wants to claim they are self sustaining, or creator out of scratch )

Attributes of Beauty : such as Merciful, Generous ..etc.
Which we are required to act with it

I hope this explains and answers your question

Best Regards

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Quote Meditations Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I assume then that you would disagree with honeto's statement (Oct. 5, 7:18 p.m.): "... the prophet is His chosen person to lead mankind toward the right, till the end of time."  But you do believe that the Prophet's words in the Hadith remain authoritative for all time, don't you?

Yes, this is the Islamic view of Prophet's words, that it is authoritative for all time, not only during his times

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Well, just to be clear, I didn't say he was ordered not to explain.  I said that he was not ordered to explain. 

Will you please tell us how did you come with this conclusion ?
The Prophet ( PBUH ) was ordered to deliver the message AND explain it

بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ {44}

[16:44] With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.
[Yusufali 16:44] ...... We have sent down to you the Reminder so that you may make clear to all people that has come down to them, so that they may reflect and be guided 

وَمَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ إِلاَّ لِتُبَيِّنَ لَهُمُ الَّذِي اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ {64}

[16:64]And so it is, We have sent down the Book to you, specifically to make clear to them about which they dispute. Thus it is indeed a guidance and mercy for a people who believe ( in divine revelation ) 



Originally posted by Ron Webb

The Quran itself contains all the explanations that are necessary; otherwise it would not be complete and perfect.

Necessary for what ? Faith, practices, financial dealings, or what ?

Qur'an demonstrates the principles of some and the details of others, and instructs us to follow the Prophet (PBUH) in application of all for He ( PBUH ) is the role model for how to apply the principles and orders in the Qur'an

For instance, Qur'an demonstrates the principles and details of faith, but doesn't demonstrate the details of practices like prayers , fasting, zakah ( charity )

In Islamic fiqh ( jurisdiction ) there's about 1.2 million points of discussion ( yes 1 million 200 thousand ), the sources for these points doesn't come only from the Qur'an, it' is the First source, but not the only one

This is why when sayeda Aisha was asked about the manners of the Prophet (PBUH) , her answer was , don't you read the Qur'an ? His manners was the Qur'an

Originally posted by Ron Webb

In fact, I believe it states in at least one place that Allah made it easy to understand.  Moreover, he was certainly ordered not to add anything to the Quran.

True, which was never done
but Qur'an also ordered us to follow the Prophet (PBUH)

Originally posted by Ron Webb

And so have innumerable imams and other leaders, but their explanations are not authoritative, i.e. they can be questioned, disputed or re-interpreted; nor are they universal.  In other words, they are not holy scripture.

Correct,

Imam Malik has a famous saying that illustrates muslims believe in that, when he stood near the grave of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) and said

We can take and reject from everyone, except for that who's in this grave

Originally posted by Ron Webb

More importantly, the hadiths go well beyond mere explanation. They add all sorts of rules, penalties, interpretations and other details not found in the Quran.

True as well, because they come from the Prophet ( PBUH ) whose sayings are guided from God whom instructed us to follow the Prophet ( PBUH )

Originally posted by Ron Webb

What I'm saying is that any such instructions are not authoritative.  They do not come directly from Allah, and do not necessarily apply for all time.

The Qur'an doesn't come directly from God as well, it comes through Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH )

The Qur'an instructed us to follow him, and this is why his words became authoriative

There're numerous verses that instructs believers to obey the Prophet ( PBUH ) , these verses are authoritative and for all times and so the instructions in it are for all times

مَّنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللّهَ وَمَن تَوَلَّى فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا {80}
[ 4:80] Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

فَلاَ وَرَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىَ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَجِدُواْ فِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيمًا {65}

[4:65] But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاء وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَـئِكَ رَفِيقًا {69}
[Shakir 4:69] And whoever obeys God and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ {3:31}
[3:31]Say
(O Muhammad, to mankind): If you love God, then follow me, God will love you and forgive you your faults, and God is Forgiving, Merciful

قُلْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ {32}
 [3:32 Say: Obey God and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely God does not love the unbelievers.

قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنِّي رَسُولُ اللّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعًا الَّذِي لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ يُحْيِـي وَيُمِيتُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ النَّبِيِّ الأُمِّيِّ الَّذِي يُؤْمِنُ بِاللّهِ وَكَلِمَاتِهِ وَاتَّبِعُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ {158}
[7:158] .... and follow him ( the Prophet )so that you may be guided."

وَأَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ {132}
[3:132] And obey God and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

There may have been particular reasons (cultural, historical, practical) why Muhammad recommended them.  We don't know. What we do know is that if they are not included in the Quran, then they are not an essential part of Islam.

Whom do you refer to by 'we' ? for muslims don't think so for sure

If we follow what you're implying to, then here's something that we don't know, which you would consider unimportant, and not an essential part of Islam

We wouldn't know the details of each prayers, that Morning prayer ( subh ) is 2 rak'a while Noon prayer( zuhr ) is 4 ...etc.
We wouldn't know how to perform prayer, do we read Qur'an first then bow down , or the other way around, do we read Qur'an , or zikr or .. ?
Wouldn't know when we should break our fasting, is it immediately after sunset while there's light visible, or when it's totally dark
We wouldn't know how much money one should own before paying zakah, for how long, and how much is the zakah we should pay
We wouldn't know which month we perform hajj, how to perform it

The list goes on

Basicly Islam would me more of a spiritual practices, that's based on each individual preferences, not a religion that unites believers

This is probably what many people want Islam to be, but this is not the Islamic belief

The idea you're talking about is not new, it's almost 1300 years old, and has been refuted since then
Some people who call themselves the Qur'anist share some of the things you proposed, and their ideas have been refuted as well

It's worth noting that the Prophet ( PBUH ) warned us explicitly from doing just tha, He ( PBUH ) said :

It's close that a man leaning on his couch and when he's spoken to by my words he would say:

"what's between us and you is the book of God ( only ), what we find in it that's permissible ( halal ) we consider permissible and what we find in it forbidden ( haram ) we consider forbidden!"

For what the messenger of God made forbidden is the same as what God made forbidden

Narrated by Ibn Majja ( 12 ) and Al Darami ( 585 )

So, what you're proposing has been refuted, and we have been warned to not do since over 1400 years ago

Hope this explains all

Feel free to ask any more questions

Best Regards

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 5:49pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

I would agree with Honeto's statement in that the Prophet Mohammed was the LAST Prophet or Messenger that God sent. Therefore the message he conveyed and the Laws of God contained therein are valid until the end of time.

The message being the Quran, I assume.  But honeto says that Muhammad continues to "lead" Muslims, even long after his death, and I don't think he is alone in that belief.  Doesn't eternal leadership sound a lot like partnership with God?

Allah made the Quran easy to understand, but if something is an entirely new and foreign concept it still takes explanation. If you took someone out of the jungles of Borneo who had never experienced "civilization" and tried to show them the proper way to use silverware it would take some explanation. Sure, using a fork is not that difficult, unless you've never seen one before or even considered the concept of eating utensils.

If the Quran had been a book of table manners, surely Allah would have been capable of writing an adequate explanation of the correct usage of eating utensils without a written supplement from Muhammad.  Maybe Muhammad could have provided a "hands-on" demonstration for his contemporaries, but that would have been no help to subsequent generations and would be fundamentally different from a written hadith or sunna.

The Quran tells us how to perform wudu ... when to pray ... and how to pray

Exactly.  (And thanks for those quotes.)  It seems pretty clear to me, and where it is unclear that can only be intentionally so, because the details are unimportant -- not because Allah failed to explain it adequately.

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 6:10pm


Originally posted by Meditations

And how did you decide that these two attributes should only be attributed to God ?
Note that these attributes are 'given' from God to the Prophets, it's not a self standing attributes
It's also given to other creatures as well if God wishes
The attribute of infallibility for instance is given to the angels whom deliver God's messages / revelations to humans


I know nothing of angels, but I know plenty about humans.  To insult a man is not ordinarily blasphemous; and man by his very nature is imperfect and capable of mistakes. 

The logical reason, is that if God kept the Prophets vulnerable to errors, then the message they are sent with would be lost, or the role model they are representing would be incorrect

It is reasonable to suppose that a man could recite the "message" (the Quran) without errors, and if he did make an error Allah could correct him.  What I said was that there is no logical reason to suppose that Muhammad was correct in everything he said or did; and your quotes from the Quran do not support such a claim.

Well, we need to know what you consider to be most of the attributes of a partner to start with, then we can see if we're attributing it to Prophet Muhhammad ( PBUH ) ?

I've already mentioned the degree of reverence, the protection from insult, infallibility, the function of defining doctrine, and authority that transcends time and space.  However, I think it's more important to know what Muslims would consider to be the attributes of a partner to Allah.  Aside from the error of addressing prayers directly to Allah, what else would constitute the sin of shirk?



Edited by Ron Webb - 08 October 2009 at 6:11pm
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 7:08pm

Originally posted by Meditations

Will you please tell us how did you come with this conclusion ?
The Prophet ( PBUH ) was ordered to deliver the message AND explain it

The passages you quoted state that the purpose of the Quran (a.k.a. the "Reminder", "the Book") is for Muhammad to make clear what is revealed.  In other words, Muhammad recites the Quran, and thus makes it clear what has been revealed.  It is not an invitation for Muhammad to add his own commentary, which would have made it unclear what had been revealed by Allah and what had not; and indeed Muhammad forbade the scribes to record his own words for exactly that reason.

For instance, Qur'an demonstrates the principles and details of faith, but doesn't demonstrate the details of practices like prayers , fasting, zakah ( charity )

Exactly, because those details are unimportant and may vary with different times and circumstances.

True as well, because they come from the Prophet ( PBUH ) whose sayings are guided from God whom instructed us to follow the Prophet ( PBUH )

There is no evidence in the Quran that his sayings, aside from the Quran itself, were guided by God.  The instruction to "follow the Messenger" (not the Prophet) means to follow him in his capacity as a messenger, in other words to abide by his message. 

At best it could be interpreted as instructions to his contemporaries to follow Muhammad as a leader among men, i.e. as a political or social leader; but it makes no sense to follow a leader who is long dead, unless we are to follow him into death.  For example, in sura 4:65 how are we in 2009 supposed to make Muhammad "judge in all disputes"?  How can a dead man judge anything?

Basicly Islam would me more of a spiritual practices, that's based on each individual preferences, not a religion that unites believers

Islam "unites" believers!?  LOL Sunnis and Shias have been slaughtering each other for centuries over silly unimportant differences in dogma that have no basis in the Quran!

And that, by the way, is my point.  I am not a Muslim myself, so I have no personal stake in its dogma.  However, for the sake of the world as a whole I would very much like Islam to be a "religion of peace", as it claims; and IMHO that cannot happen as long as it is tied to the corrupt and anachronistic hadith.
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