IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Muhammad as a partner with Allah

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Originally posted by Gibbs

I know I'm kinda jumping in late in this thread but I'm curious to ask whether being divine necessarily makes you co-equal to God.

No Gibbs. Like for example angels are divine. But are they even anywhere miles near God's level, forget about co-equalling? Afterall, they're all God's very own creation, if you get what I mean...

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I am flabbergasted that this thread is still running!
 Ron's tenacity in keep saying Mhmd(s) being Allah's partner goes to 
tell it is something to do with your sign of cancer cuz I know few of 
them and their's " my way or highway attitude".

lol. He's hardly got me even bother thinking on anything though. All he does is play around with words to somehow make the Prophet sound something above a human, and every chance he gets a twist and turn things he has a go at it. It mightn't be intentional and he actually might be trying to understand the concept, but he's not yet claimed a solid reason to me which makes him think the Prophet SAW is considered anything of that sort. Oh well all a simple, common sense needs is to read through this Quran verse once to understand it;

"Say (O Muhammad) my prayer, my 
sacrifice, my life and my death 

          belong to Allah; He has no partner and I am ordered to be 
among those 

          who submit, i.e.; Muslims." (6:162, 163)

Originally posted by Ron Webb

And by "the message" do you mean only the Quran, or do you 
mean everything he ever said or did?

'The message' is a vague term, and you know it. It refers to every thing God wanted to be directed at the muslims. Yeah, you could say Quran is the foremost message though.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I'm not sure what "not as obligatory as" means -- either they are 
obligatory or they are not -- but if you are saying that the sunnah (and
 the hadith?) are optional, then that would be refreshing.  It would 
only be a small step from there to consider that optional 
recommendations become less and les applicable as the centuries and 
millennia pile up, and that ultimately only the Quran would remain as a 
universal and eternal law.

But I really doubt that many Muslims would agree with that.

You didn't get it 
Yes, they're not obligatory, as in there's a big difference between denying God's direct words and not following Prophet's Sunnah. But, IMO, I said its highly, highly encouraged, and so in the Quran itself, i.e. direct words of God. What does that tell you? That if you truly and sincerely follow God's words, you'd obviously follow the Sunnah.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

If that's so, then as I keep asking, what's left?  If 
everything he ever said or did is from Allah, if he never said or did 
anything in his entire life that wasn't directed by Allah, then he is 
far less than a man.  He is a mere automaton, a puppet 
controlled by a higher power.  Do you really believe that?  Surely he 
said and did at least some things on his own.

Dude, you make it sound like he invented his own ways of religion or something of that sort. "If everything he ever did is from Allah..." *Cough* *Cough* Isn't it easy to understand that if you follow the entire Quran properly, everything you do is follow Allah, lol? He was supposed to be a role model for muslims, what's so shocking in him following everything in the Quran and demonstrating that to the muslims in the process.
He's not a "puppet", another wrong term, sir. He's a follower. The difference? Will. Puppets don't have a will. Followers chose to follow one of their own free will.
"Surely he did some things on his own..."
^Yeh, of course he did, he was a human afterall  
So what if he did? Not sure what you're trying to imply here.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

When someone asks you to do something, and you do it, isn't it 
reasonable to assume that you are doing it for the one who asks?  Allah 
asks you (in the Quran) to fast, and therefore I assume you are doing it
 for Him; but then if Muhammad tells you how to fast, that 
would imply that you are fasting in that particular way for 
Muhammad.

As I already said earlier, the Prophet SAW didn't create his 'own ways'. The Quran tells us how to fast. A better example would be prayers, it briefly tells us how to pray of course, but someone had to demonstrate how the actions, which are demanded by God, are to be carried out. There is no "Muhammad SAW way" here.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I guess if you truly believe that absolutely everything Muhammad

 said and did was a message from God, then following the sunnah is 
worshipping God.  It just seems to me that that is a very demeaning view
 of Muahmmad, making him utterly without free will or any ideas of his 
own.
I cleared the everything part out already."Ideas of his own"?! I'm pretty sure had someone said he had his own ideas involved in modfying Islam, you'd have gone all "see he has the Godly status too!". If anything, this further goes against your very claim of Muhammad SAW being a partner to Allah, lol. He's passing on God's words here, which are perfect, I'm not sure what need he has to present his own ideas in between.

However, when it came to lifestyle, he had his special ways which I wouldn't call his ideas but more like the way he lived. Those come under Sunnah too. Since he's a role model people do follow them, but I'm not sure if it has much to do with the basic topic.

Author	Message
xx__Ace__xx Senior Member Joined: 01 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 100	Posted: 15 June 2010 at 4:40am
	*Originally posted by Gibbs* I know I'm kinda jumping in late in this thread but I'm curious to ask whether being divine necessarily makes you co-equal to God. No Gibbs. Like for example angels are divine. But are they even anywhere miles near God's level, forget about co-equalling? Afterall, they're all God's very own creation, if you get what I mean... **Originally posted by SignReader* I am flabbergasted that this thread is still running! Ron's tenacity in keep saying Mhmd(s) being Allah's partner goes to tell it is something to do with your sign of cancer cuz I know few of them and their's " my way or highway attitude". lol. He's hardly got me even bother thinking on anything though. All he does is play around with words to somehow make the Prophet sound something above a human, and every chance he gets a twist and turn things he has a go at it. It mightn't be intentional and he actually might be trying to understand the concept, but he's not yet claimed a solid reason to me which makes him think the Prophet SAW is considered anything of that sort. Oh well all a simple, common sense needs is to read through this Quran verse once to understand it; "Say (O Muhammad) my prayer, my sacrifice, my life and my death belong to Allah; He has no partner and I am ordered to be among those who submit, i.e.; Muslims." (6:162, 163) Originally posted by Ron Webb And by "the message" do you mean only the Quran, or do you mean everything he ever said or did? 'The message' is a vague term, and you know it. It refers to every thing God wanted to be directed at the muslims. Yeah, you could say Quran is the foremost message though. Originally posted by Ron Webb** I'm not sure what "not as obligatory as" means -- either they are obligatory or they are not -- but if you are saying that the sunnah (and the hadith?) are optional, then that would be refreshing. It would only be a small step from there to consider that optional recommendations become less and les applicable as the centuries and millennia pile up, and that ultimately only the Quran would remain as a universal and eternal law. But I really doubt that many Muslims would agree with that. You didn't get it Yes, they're not obligatory, as in there's a big difference between denying God's direct words and not following Prophet's Sunnah. But, IMO, I said its highly, highly encouraged, and so in the Quran itself, i.e. direct words of God. What does that tell you? That if you truly and sincerely follow God's words, you'd obviously follow the Sunnah. *Originally posted by Ron Webb* If that's so, then as I keep asking, what's left? If everything he ever said or did is from Allah, if he never said or did anything in his entire life that wasn't directed by Allah, then he is far less than a man. He is a mere automaton, a puppet controlled by a higher power. Do you really believe that? Surely he said and did at least some things on his own. Dude, you make it sound like he invented his own ways of religion or something of that sort. "If everything he ever did is from Allah..." Cough Cough Isn't it easy to understand that if you follow the entire Quran properly, everything you do is follow Allah, lol? He was supposed to be a role model for muslims, what's so shocking in him following everything in the Quran and demonstrating that to the muslims in the process. He's not a "puppet", another wrong term, sir. He's a follower. The difference? Will. Puppets don't have a will. Followers chose to follow one of their own free will. "Surely he did some things on his own..." ^Yeh, of course he did, he was a human afterall So what if he did? Not sure what you're trying to imply here. *Originally posted by Ron Webb* When someone asks you to do something, and you do it, isn't it reasonable to assume that you are doing it for the one who asks? Allah asks you (in the Quran) to fast, and therefore I assume you are doing it for Him; but then if Muhammad tells you how to fast, that would imply that you are fasting in that particular way for Muhammad. As I already said earlier, the Prophet SAW didn't create his 'own ways'. The Quran tells us how to fast. A better example would be prayers, it briefly tells us how to pray of course, but someone had to demonstrate how the actions, which are demanded by God, are to be carried out. There is no "Muhammad SAW way" here. *Originally posted by Ron Webb* I guess if you truly believe that absolutely everything Muhammad said and did was a message from God, then following the sunnah is worshipping God. It just seems to me that that is a very demeaning view of Muahmmad, making him utterly without free will or any ideas of his own. I cleared the everything part out already."Ideas of his own"?! I'm pretty sure had someone said he had his own ideas involved in modfying Islam, you'd have gone all "see he has the Godly status too!". If anything, this further goes against your very claim of Muhammad SAW being a partner to Allah, lol. He's passing on God's words here, which are perfect, I'm not sure what need he has to present his own ideas in between. However, when it came to lifestyle, he had his special ways which I wouldn't call his ideas but more like the way he lived. Those come under Sunnah too. Since he's a role model people do follow them, but I'm not sure if it has much to do with the basic topic.
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 15 June 2010 at 4:46pm
	**Originally posted by SignReader*** I am flabbergasted that this thread is still running! Me too. I think I said pretty much everything I wanted to say on the topic months ago. Maybe I shouldn't have replied to xx__Ace__xx, but I didn't want to be discourteous. There is one more thing I could add. Throughout this discussion I had in mind an analogy, which I don't think I ever stated. I was thinking about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which could certainly be viewed as polytheism but Christians vehemently deny this accusation. I could also mention the Catholic practice of praying to the Virgin Mary and various saints, kneeling before statues and icons, etc., which looks a lot like idolatry but again the Catholics deny it. The point I was trying to make is that simply denying such a claim doesn't make it untrue. IMHO one cannot ignore the logical implications of the doctrine or the practice in question just because the believers deny those implications. To paraphrase a common aphorism: if it looks like shirk, and it walks like shirk, and it quacks like shirk, then it's probably shirk -- regardless of what you may call it or how you want to rationalize it.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 15 June 2010 at 8:13pm
	I think there is some confusion going on here, and some basic clarification is needed: God, the Creator of All the One and Only. Mohammed (pbuh) a man, a dedicated servant of God, chosen to be a messenger of God to mankind. There was message sent or revealed through him (the Quran) that was word of God. Other saying were not word of God that are transmitted through his companions. Angels: God's creations, who serve Him without disobedience. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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xx__Ace__xx Senior Member Joined: 01 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 100	Posted: 16 June 2010 at 5:53am
	Aye Hasan, the very first thing I started off with is the basic point. He obviously didn't get it. Or most likely chose to ignore it. Ron, your 'not wanting to be discourteous' would have more meaning to it had you even once made sense, or atleast not have ignored the times you were clearly proven your claim wasn't the case. Muhammad SAW is NOT worshipped, IMO, as clear and simple as that. Which mean this isn't Shirk, and you, weren't able to literally even once, provide me with any solid point to wonder otherwise. *Originally posted by Ron Webb* The point I was trying to make is that simply denying such a claim doesn't make it untrue. Aye but, denying it with logical and crystal clear words directly taken from the sacred scripture (mind you, that's what makes Islam different) which the religion follows as a must and considers the higest form of authority, does. If a king hires one of his followers and servants as a messenger, the nation can't go all "hey, he's speaking on behalf of the king, does that mean he's a partner of some sort to the king ordoes this imply their sharing of kingdom?" That's ridiculous at best. /End thread. *Originally posted by Ron Webb* To paraphrase a common aphorism: if it looks like shirk, and it walks like shirk, and it quacks like shirk, then it's probably shirk -- regardless of what you may call it or how you want to rationalize it. ^Leads me to believe your definition of Shirk fails Shirk (Arabic: شرك‎) or polytheism means to consider anyone god other than the true God, Allah.^[1] Shirk is also associating partners with him, giving his characteristics to others beside him, or not believing in his characteristics. ^Its been made crstal clear that neither do we associate any partners with God, we don't give his characteristics to anyone beside him either. I just don't see what you can deny here and somehow go on to claim Muhammad SAW is considered a partner to Allah. Simply put : If worshipping the one and only God makes you think that it looks like shirk, walks like shirk and quacks like shirk, then your accusation of muslims comitting shirk looks like fail, walks like fail and quacks like fail Edited by xx__Ace__xx - 16 June 2010 at 9:54am
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 16 June 2010 at 6:47pm
	*Originally posted by xx__Ace__xx* 'The message' is a vague term, and you know it. It refers to every thing God wanted to be directed at the muslims. Yeah, you could say Quran is the foremost message though. Yes, it's a vague term, which is why I asked for clarification. Aside from the Quran, how do we know what God wanted to be directed to Muslims? As I already said earlier, the Prophet SAW didn't create his 'own ways'. The Quran tells us how to fast. A better example would be prayers, it briefly tells us how to pray of course, but someone had to demonstrate how the actions, which are demanded by God, are to be carried out. There is no "Muhammad SAW way" here. If Allah's Message did not explain exactly how or what to pray, then obviously (at least to me) Allah doesn't care exactly how or what you pray -- and why would He? Allah commanded you to "follow the Prophet", but obviously (again, at least to me) He didn't mean literally and exactly, or you would all be living in Saudi Arabia and riding camels. He meant to emulate the Prophet in his sincerity and devotion. Those are the things that matter, not mere words.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis Senior Member Joined: 25 November 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2031	Posted: 17 June 2010 at 1:10am
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* If Allah's Message did not explain exactly how or what to pray, then obviously (at least to me) Allah doesn't care exactly how or what you pray -- and why would He? Oh but He DID explain how to pray and what to pray. He Instructed Prophet Muhammad with how to pray etc. Sunnah comes in. Allah commanded you to "follow the Prophet", but obviously (again, at least to me) He didn't mean literally and exactly, or you would all be living in Saudi Arabia and riding camels. The part in bold, underline and italics says it all. According to you "Follow the Prophet" does not mean follow the Prophet. In Islam, for Muslims it does. How does a literal interpretation of 'follow the Prophet' mean we would be living in Saudi Arabia - riding camels ? Even a Muslim of below average intelligence has the ability to interpret this verse Ron . . . Don't know why you don't. He meant to emulate the Prophet in his sincerity and devotion. Those are the things that matter, not mere words. Sincerity and Devotion means nothing unless it translates into ACTION. This is a major difference b/w Islam & other religions, we don't just preach flowery words, we (are supposed to) act on it. It is impossible to emulate sincerity & devotion without backing it with acts. Thus, we have to emulate the Prophet's actions as well - if we want to be sincere & devoted.
	"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 17 June 2010 at 4:37am
	*Originally posted by honeto* There was message sent or revealed through him (the Quran) that was word of God. Other saying were not word of God that are transmitted through his companions. *Originally posted by xx__Ace__xx* Aye Hasan, the very first thing I started off with is the basic point. He obviously didn't get it. Or most likely chose to ignore it. Well, clearly somebody's not getting it! Please read Hasan's words again, Ace. He's telling you (as I have been trying to tell you) that the Quran is the only message from God, not just the "foremost" message.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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xx__Ace__xx Senior Member Joined: 01 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 100	Posted: 17 June 2010 at 4:56am
	adj. 1. First in time or place. 2. Ahead of all others, especially in position or rank; paramount. See Synonyms at chief. adv. 1. In the front or first position. 2. So as to be most important. lol Its obviously of the highest authority simply cuz its the God's only words. AND, *Originally posted by honeto* Mohammed (pbuh) a man, a dedicated servant of God, chosen to be a messenger of God to mankind. There was message sent or revealed through him (the Quran) that was word of God. Which is something I've been trynna tell you on your asking how the Prophet's words are the words of God. Who do you think passed on the Quran, the words of God, to the muslims of that time, rofl? *Originally posted by Ron Webb* as I have been trying to tell you) that the Quran is the only message from God Oh, then this verse should pretty much have done the job back then; "Say (O Muhammad) my prayer, my sacrifice, my life and my death belong to Allah; He has no partner and I am ordered to be among those who submit, i.e.; Muslims." (6:162, 163) Edited by xx__Ace__xx - 18 June 2010 at 4:55am
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