Here is proof of Allah’s Love, Kindness and Mercy towards His servants. He only need to send down His Last Testament that is the Quran and as a physical embodiment of the Quran, He has perfected the characters His Beloved Servant Prophet Muhammad as a model, and examplar . Nothing that Muhammad did was from his own desire. His soul was so pure, that he only acted according to the will of God. I doubt if you understand this part.

Allah Almighty had preserved the character of Prophet Muhammad to be the best of all human being. Therefore it is not surprising that Prophet Muhammad was considered a Walking Quran.

I find it strange that cartoons of Muhammad would get people killed, or that a schoolteacher could get in trouble with the law for allowing her class to name their teddy bear "Muhammad".  But maybe that's just me.

It tells me that Muhammad acknowledged that his own words did not have the divine authority and ought not to be preserved for all time.  But Muhammad did not say that the hadith were not to be recorded "while the Quran was being revealed".  He said they were not to be recorded, period. 

What makes them divine, in my opinion anyway, is the claim that his power and authority extend throughout all time and space.  No mortal has such authority; only a god could make such a claim.  Or a partner to God.

I expect they would have to hear (or read) it more than once, and no doubt discussion would help.  But if you are saying that Muhammad did a better job of explaining the law in the hadith than Allah did in the Quran, then that's probably a whole other kind a sacrilege.

I have no trouble understanding the Quran.  My problem is in understanding how a corrupt, unreliable and superfluous collection of apparently random hearsay has been elevated to the status of Holy Scripture, when you already have the perfect and complete Quran, from God Himself.

I doubt you can find any evidence of that in the Quran.

If the complete and perfect Quran doesn't give the process details, then the process details are unimportant.

My understanding is that you pray five times a day, but you would know better than me.  What's your point?

Dear Ron,



What are the ways that is similar to God / Allah ?



A partner ( junior or equal ) implies sharing some of the divine actions, ownership, authority or divine attributes
Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) never stated this, nor does muslims believe he did

I don't see how that ALL intents and purposes are indistinguishable from that of God
There's a difference between having the intenetion / purposes that pleases God, and what you're referring to

For instance Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) got married, had children ...etc.

This is not unique to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), to insult ANY Prophet / messanger is to commit blasphemy in Islam

It also mentions Prophet Abraham (PBUH) and his legacy in the same sentences

This is also not unique to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), all Prophets are infallible in matters of doctrine
it's a logical thing
if they can't deliver a correct message, then they're not fit for the task in hand

There're different categories of the statements and actions of the Prophet (PBUH) but in general yes, His statements are considered doctrine, because of it being infallible and guided from God

There're many categories of hadiths, some have more authorative power than others, but no muslim considers hadiths to be on the same level as the Qur'an

Can't answer this hypothetical question
it's like, if you were a monkey, how would you feel / do ?

If you put a clear definition of what you consider shirk, then maybe we can answer this question

Bare in mind that shirk could have different definition to muslims than yours

Best Regards

Whether they apply to all prophets or just to Muhammad, these are two attributes that are shared only with God, and not with other men.

I am willing to accept for the sake of argument that Muhammad delivered the "message" of the Quran correctly (notwithstanding the controversy over the so-called Satanic verses); but there is no logical reason, nor anything in the Quran, to suggest that Muhammad was correct in everything he said or did.

Actually, the point of my question was to ask what you would consider shirk.  Obviously if you explicitly claim that Muhammad is a partner to Allah, then that is shirk; but if you treat him as a partner in most other ways, i.e. if you attribute to him most of the attributes of a partner, is that not still shirk even if you deny it?

Edited by Ron Webb - 07 October 2009 at 7:09pm

And how did you decide that these two attributes should only be attributed to God ?
Note that these attributes are 'given' from God to the Prophets, it's not a self standing attributes
It's also given to other creatures as well if God wishes
The attribute of infallibility for instance is given to the angels whom deliver God's messages / revelations to humans

The term 'satanic verses' can be a variety of issues, if you want to discuss it please start a new topic , so this topic remains in track

I'm not sure what are you basing your statement upon

The logical reason, is that if God kept the Prophets vulnerable to errors, then the message they are sent with would be lost, or the role model they are representing would be incorrect

The reasons from the Qur'an

[52:48]So be patient ( O Prophet ) with your Lord's decree ( to deliver His message ) For you are ever under (the care of) Our (watchful) eyes

[53:3] Nor does he speak out of whim.
[53:4] This is nothing but a revelation being revealed to him

I still don't get what are the 'most other ways' ?
so far you mentioned only insulting being blasphemy and being infallible

Well, we need to know what you consider to be most of the attributes of a partner to start with, then we can see if we're attributing it to Prophet Muhhammad ( PBUH ) ?

I'll tell you some attributes that muslims DO NOT attribute to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) that is unique to God which are not shared with any creature, no matter how high their status is

Self existence
Creation by self power ( not by another power )
All knowing
All Sustaining
Self subsisting

Also note that God has so many attributes, which can be categorized into 3 main categories

Attributes of Majesty : such as  King above all, Overpowering , Sublime / Supreme , Irresistible
Which we are required to NOT act with it, though we can if we want ( by being arrogant, overpowering people for instance ..etc.)

Attributes of Perfectionism : such as All knowing, Creator, All Living, Self sustaining
Which we can not act with it even if we tried ( unless someone wants to claim they are self sustaining, or creator out of scratch )

Attributes of Beauty : such as Merciful, Generous ..etc.
Which we are required to act with it

I hope this explains and answers your question

Best Regards