IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Muhammad as a partner with Allah

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Originally posted by Ron Webb in black

Muslims claim they do not treat Muhammad as a partner to Allah, but I've never been able to reconcile that claim with their actual doctrine or practice.
How would we know? May be you have been hanging out with not too knowledgeable Muslims in your country I am afraid...you need to discount the devolution some of those might have gone through in the days of their bondage of the colonialism in their lives...
but still you need to describe what have you observed so it could be clarified ...
  Clearly, Muhammad occupies a central place in Islam, unlike any other human, but in many ways similar to Allah.  To be sure, Muslims will acknowledge that Muhammad is subordinate to Allah, but the sin of shirk does not stipulate equal partnership, and it seems to me that a junior partner is still a partner. 
Central as Human being of course not divine. just the slave; How  does slave gets to be junior partner?
You are  trying to be prosecutor , judge and jury all at the same time!
You have failed to present any evidence and have reached to your indictment , you are not a juvenile to act that way? 
There are sixty four signs in Quran (http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/ ) just add partner in the search/ that clearly preclude this   assumption of yours! ...As a matter fact this flies in the face of Allah's rejection of  Christianity's main argument of trinitarian partnership theme
If you  study the daily salaat x5  that has a supplication at the end that gives privileged position to  Prophet Abraham after declaring there is no partnership to Allah and Mhmd being Allah's slave and a messenger...

Consider the following: Muhammad is treated with a degree of reverence that for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from that for Allah Himself.
People in his time recognized God due to Mhmd's character, efforts and struggles unmatched in the annals of prophetic efforts and accepted the words he got. What they saw must be a lovable soul and they did give him what he deserved the love and reverence, 
He was the only messenger  who had completed the task at hand... still was  concerned and worried as protector for his nation till eternity like a father more loving than real fathers when it came to save and redeem.
  To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy.
Not a new  standard as regards to Allah and his prophets...The people who insult the prophets are the party of Satan and regard this as blasphemy is self explanatory; any one dissing your beloved will invite the condemnation ...It same about everything else in this world...What is so strange? 
  Muslim prayers, though not directly addressed to the Prophet, mention him frequently.
Well that was what he was told to practice by  the boss(Allah) And he let the believers in on the preferred and accepted process!  Consider this like a investment  policy,  say peace(salaam) one time and u find peace ten folds... which  believer would not like to have this bargain? 
 He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine.
In fact, his statements and his actions are doctrine: the hadith and sunna sit on your bookshelf alongside the Quran, and are considered similarly authoritative.
According to the Prophet the Hadith were not to be recorded while Quran was being revealed to keep Quranic authority perspective clearly supreme...That should tell you something ...
What kind of argument is that Hadith and  Quran are next to each other on Muslim household shelf? 
It is absolutely a laughable argument... They are separate books and class ... I have bible and book of Mormon and few others texts sitting on the same shelf what difference does that make?
Would you have liked if  Muslim had done the same as the Christian did to theirs, mix up Jesus's hadith and sunna with what God had revealed to him? Then he did not establish anything before his going away...

So my question is this: how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah? 
It is a very sly proposition  cuz you are going into a hypothesis that would be similar world that was created by merging Christian dogma with Roman's mythological religion! 
It  would be a sepia version   of Christians or  Muhammadans (if the 64 signs had been taken out of the Quranic narratives I can't think how) as the westerner colonist used to label the vanquished Muslims...To get there you will need to revise the world history also...That is a tall order..There would be no Muslim and Islamicity to read this!
By now there will be a new concoction a cross between +tains and so called Mhmdns or may be not if the so called Muhammadans had been on their war path without mercy probably there would be no Christians left in the 7th/ 8th century Mhmdn empire...Any more of your hypothesis...
 How can I tell that you are not committing shirk?Who the heck would worry about shirk? the concept would be out of the lexicon...

Edited by Sign*Reader - 08 October 2009 at 7:13pm

Author	Message
Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352	Posted: 05 October 2009 at 9:35pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb in black* Muslims claim they do not treat Muhammad as a partner to Allah, but I've never been able to reconcile that claim with their actual doctrine or practice. How would we know? May be you have been hanging out with not too knowledgeable Muslims in your country I am afraid...you need to discount the devolution some of those might have gone through in the days of their bondage of the colonialism in their lives... but still you need to describe what have you observed so it could be clarified ... Clearly, Muhammad occupies a central place in Islam, unlike any other human, but in many ways similar to Allah. To be sure, Muslims will acknowledge that Muhammad is subordinate to Allah, *but the sin of shirk does not stipulate equal* partnership, and it seems to me that a junior partner is still a partner. Central as Human being of course not divine. just the slave; How does slave gets to be junior partner? You are trying to be prosecutor , judge and jury all at the same time! You have failed to present any evidence and have reached to your indictment , you are not a juvenile to act that way?** There are sixty four signs in Quran (http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/ ) just add partner in the search/ that clearly preclude this assumption of yours! ...As a matter fact this flies in the face of Allah's rejection of Christianity's main argument of trinitarian partnership theme If you study the daily salaat x5 that has a supplication at the end that gives privileged position to Prophet Abraham after declaring there is no partnership to Allah and Mhmd being Allah's slave and a messenger... Consider the following: Muhammad is treated with a degree of reverence that for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from that for Allah Himself. People in his time recognized God due to Mhmd's character, efforts and struggles unmatched in the annals of prophetic efforts and accepted the words he got. What they saw must be a lovable soul and they did give him what he deserved the love and reverence, He was the only messenger who had completed the task at hand... still was concerned and worried as protector for his nation till eternity like a father more loving than real fathers when it came to save and redeem. To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy. Not a new standard as regards to Allah and his prophets...The people who insult the prophets are the party of Satan and regard this as blasphemy is self explanatory; any one dissing your beloved will invite the condemnation ...It same about everything else in this world...What is so strange? Muslim prayers, though not directly addressed to the Prophet, mention him frequently. Well that was what he was told to practice by the boss(Allah) And he let the believers in on the preferred and accepted process! Consider this like a investment policy, say peace(salaam) one time and u find peace ten folds... which believer would not like to have this bargain? He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine. In fact, his statements and his actions are doctrine: the hadith and sunna sit on your bookshelf alongside the Quran, and are considered similarly authoritative. According to the Prophet the Hadith were not to be recorded while Quran was being revealed to keep Quranic authority perspective clearly supreme...That should tell you something ... What kind of argument is that Hadith and Quran are next to each other on Muslim household shelf? It is absolutely a laughable argument... They are separate books and class ... I have bible and book of Mormon and few others texts sitting on the same shelf what difference does that make? Would you have liked if Muslim had done the same as the Christian did to theirs, mix up Jesus's hadith and sunna with what God had revealed to him? Then he did not establish anything before his going away... So my question is this: how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah? It is a very sly proposition cuz you are going into a hypothesis that would be similar world that was created by merging Christian dogma with Roman's mythological religion! It would be a sepia version of Christians or Muhammadans (if the 64 signs had been taken out of the Quranic narratives I can't think how) as the westerner colonist used to label the vanquished Muslims...To get there you will need to revise the world history also...That is a tall order..There would be no Muslim and Islamicity to read this! By now there will be a new concoction a cross between +tains and so called Mhmdns or may be not if the so called Muhammadans had been on their war path without mercy probably there would be no Christians left in the 7th/ 8th century Mhmdn empire...Any more of your hypothesis... How can I tell that you are not committing shirk? Who the heck would worry about shirk? the concept would be out of the lexicon... Edited by Sign*Reader - 08 October 2009 at 7:13pm
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 06 October 2009 at 1:07am
	Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 08 October 2009 at 7:28pm
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 06 October 2009 at 1:33am
	Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 08 October 2009 at 7:27pm
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 06 October 2009 at 6:03am
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* As the sura says, the Messenger's duty was only to convey the message clearly. He was not to add anything to it -- neither explanations nor illustrations nor anything else. If further explanations or illustrations had been necessary, surely Allah would have provided them. Or are you suggesting that Muhammad was better at explaining and illustrating than Allah? Here is proof of Allah’s Love, Kindness and Mercy towards His servants. He only need to send down His Last Testament that is the Quran and as a physical embodiment of the Quran, He has perfected the characters His Beloved Servant Prophet Muhammad as a model, and examplar . Nothing that Muhammad did was from his own desire. His soul was so pure, that he only acted according to the will of God. I doubt if you understand this part. Allah Almighty had preserved the character of Prophet Muhammad to be the best of all human being. Therefore it is not surprising that Prophet Muhammad was considered a Walking Quran.
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352	Posted: 06 October 2009 at 12:00pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* Can you give me an example of something in the Quran that you think is unclear on its own, and in need of further explanation or illustration? Nur... pl. let me help Ron on this... Ron W...The best example is how to obligatory prayers, Quran doesn't give the process details where comes in the Sunnah and Tradition of the prophet about all the multitudinous prayers which makes the foundation of the Islamic deen... Now I gather that you have surveyed the Islamic practices I would like to ask you about prayers that how many are these? Have you looked into the evolution of Nation of Islam and the difference between the father Elijah M's self styled temple wanderings and son Warith Deen M's mosques prayers in consonance with prophetic traditions... If you knew this part of the American history I think we should rest our case... Edited by Sign*Reader - 06 October 2009 at 12:05pm
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1409	Posted: 06 October 2009 at 6:22pm
	**Originally posted by SignReader*** Not a new standard as regards to Allah and his prophets...The people who insult the prophets are the party of Satan and regard this as blasphemy is self explanatory; any one dissing your beloved will invite the condemnation ...It same about everything else in this world...What is so strange? I find it strange that cartoons of Muhammad would get people killed, or that a schoolteacher could get in trouble with the law for allowing her class to name their teddy bear "Muhammad". But maybe that's just me. According to the Prophet the Hadith were not to be recorded while Quran was being revealed to keep Quranic authority perspective clearly supreme...That should tell you something ... It tells me that Muhammad acknowledged that his own words did not have the divine authority and ought not to be preserved for all time. But Muhammad did not say that the hadith were not to be recorded "while the Quran was being revealed". He said they were not to be recorded, period. It's interesting, though, that you would interpret that particular statement as applying only for a period of time and not for all eternity. If you would only apply the same standard to the rest of his hadith. *Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* But no-one is attributing the Prophet with divine attributes. He had authority, power, and honour, yes, but so have many men and women. That does not make them divine. What makes them divine, in my opinion anyway, is the claim that his power and authority extend throughout all time and space. No mortal has such authority; only a god could make such a claim. Or a partner to God. There is nothing within this Surah that states the Prophet could not explain the meaning of what was revealed. What the Prophet was teaching the Arabs of his time was something totally foreign to them. To expect them to hear a revelation once and immediately understand it is almost impossible. I expect they would have to hear (or read) it more than once, and no doubt discussion would help. But if you are saying that Muhammad did a better job of explaining the law in the hadith than Allah did in the Quran, then that's probably a whole other kind a sacrilege. Take you, for example. You have gone over this subject numerous times, yet you still don't seem to understand it and keep asking for an explanation. I have no trouble understanding the Quran. My problem is in understanding how a corrupt, unreliable and superfluous collection of apparently random hearsay has been elevated to the status of Holy Scripture, when you already have the perfect and complete Quran, from God Himself. *Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* Nothing that Muhammad did was from his own desire. His soul was so pure, that he only acted according to the will of God. I doubt if you understand this part. I doubt you can find any evidence of that in the Quran. **Originally posted by SignReader*** Ron W...The best example is how to obligatory prayers, Quran doesn't give the process details where comes in the Sunnah and Tradition of the prophet about all the multitudinous prayers which makes the foundation of the Islamic deen... If the complete and perfect Quran doesn't give the process details, then the process details are unimportant. Now I gather that you have surveyed the Islamic practices I would like to ask you about prayers that how many are these? My understanding is that you pray five times a day, but you would know better than me. What's your point?
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 06 October 2009 at 8:54pm
	Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 08 October 2009 at 7:27pm
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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Meditations Senior Member Joined: 16 November 2002 Online Status: Offline Posts: 239	Posted: 07 October 2009 at 8:29am
	Dear Ron, *Originally posted by Ron Webb* Muslims claim they do not treat Muhammad as a partner to Allah, but I've never been able to reconcile that claim with their actual doctrine or practice. Clearly, Muhammad occupies a central place in Islam, unlike any other human, but in many ways similar to Allah. What are the ways that is similar to God / Allah ? *Originally posted by Ron Webb* To be sure, Muslims will acknowledge that Muhammad is subordinate to Allah, but the sin of shirk does not stipulate equal partnership, and it seems to me that a junior partner is still a partner. A partner ( junior or equal ) implies sharing some of the divine actions, ownership, authority or divine attributes Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) never stated this, nor does muslims believe he did *Originally posted by Ron Webb* Consider the following: Muhammad is treated with a degree of reverence that for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from that for Allah Himself. I don't see how that ALL intents and purposes are indistinguishable from that of God There's a difference between having the intenetion / purposes that pleases God, and what you're referring to For instance Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) got married, had children ...etc. *Originally posted by Ron Webb* To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy. This is not unique to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), to insult ANY Prophet / messanger is to commit blasphemy in Islam *Originally posted by Ron Webb* Muslim prayers, though not directly addressed to the Prophet, mention him frequently. It also mentions Prophet Abraham (PBUH) and his legacy in the same sentences *Originally posted by Ron Webb* He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine. This is also not unique to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), all Prophets are infallible in matters of doctrine it's a logical thing if they can't deliver a correct message, then they're not fit for the task in hand *Originally posted by Ron Webb* In fact, his statements and his actions are doctrine: There're different categories of the statements and actions of the Prophet (PBUH) but in general yes, His statements are considered doctrine, because of it being infallible and guided from God *Originally posted by Ron Webb* the hadith and sunna sit on your bookshelf alongside the Quran, and are considered similarly authoritative. There're many categories of hadiths, some have more authorative power than others, but no muslim considers hadiths to be on the same level as the Qur'an *Originally posted by Ron Webb* So my question is this: how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah? Can't answer this hypothetical question it's like, if you were a monkey, how would you feel / do ? *Originally posted by Ron Webb* How can I tell that you are not committing shirk? If you put a clear definition of what you consider shirk, then maybe we can answer this question Bare in mind that shirk could have different definition to muslims than yours Best Regards
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