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 Topic: Muhammad as a partner with Allah |
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Meditations
Senior Member 
Joined: 16 November 2002 Online Status: Offline Posts: 227 |
   Posted: 29 October 2009 at 6:41pm |
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Yes, I remember reading that and being puzzled by it. Can you (or anyone) explain to me what "showing off" has to do with polytheism or with "setting up partners"? I understand that showing off could be a sin, but why would Muhammad call it "shirk"? Because in Islam, all actions ( heart action or body actions ) are judged by the intentions, and for each If someone is giving charity to be famous for being charitable, he's not paying charity for the sake of God From the outside, he's doing an act of worship to God, but in reality, he's doing it for himself/others three kinds of people are some of the first to be thrown in hellfire a scholar who taught so it's to be said he's a scholar / knowledgable a warrior who fought to be said he's brave a charity giving person who gave money to be said he's a generous Hope this explains it |
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He said : My Lord, Open for me my heart, And make easy my mission , And release the knot of my tongue, So they understand my words . Surat AtTur ( 20 ) : 25-28
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Meditations
Senior Member
Joined: 16 November 2002 Online Status: Offline Posts: 227 |
Posted: 29 October 2009 at 7:10pm |
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Originally posted by Ron Webb If by western culture you mean Christianity, surely they have the same God. What do you mean? I mean western culture in general, not christianity What do you mean by they have the same God? christians ?
Originally posted by Ron Webb So what do you think Allah meant when He warned us against "setting up partners"? We were warned against directing an act of worship to a creature believing that a creature has any knowledge, might or power by himself believing that a creature can effectively challenge the will of God, separate from the will of God believing that a creature can sustain itself without the need of God This applies for any creature big or small, be it an angel, prophet, or a virus Originally posted by Ron Webb Obviously it is not possible for us Who do you mean by 'us' ? Originally posted by Ron Webb to attribute to mortal beings such characteristics as immortality, creation of life, or invulnerability to fire. You said you'll accept Qur'an as a reference, Qur'an teaches us this, so you'll have to accept it ( I'm assuming you know the reference for all this, if you don't we can provide it ) Also, what do you mean by mortal ? do you mean completely disappearing from existence ? or just the death of a body ? How would you define mortal for bodiless creatures, like Angels, jenn, or satans ? We don't believe in the death of the soul, (whether it's a soul of believe or a disbeliever ) the body dies, but the soul existed before the creation of the body, and remains after the body's death, unless it's God's will to terminate it's supply of existence note that this is very different from the concept of incarnation as some mistakenly might think so Note that a creature being immortal in the common definition in the west (remaining in existence) doesn't mean this creature is either good or bad or give it a higher status by just this feature We believe shaytan ( satan ) existed before humans were on earth, still exists, and will still exist until judgment day and after it in hellfire Does that imply to you in anyway that we consider satan ( whom we curse ) a partner with God ? I hope this example explains this islamic concept to you Originally posted by Ron Webb So aside from the name of the entity to which we address our prayers, what could we think or do that would constitute "setting up partners"? We tend to know about God from what God tells us This is some of what we're told about God. and tell us if there's anything that we belief in a creature that is similar in any shape or form to this هُوَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ هُوَ الرَّحْمَنُ الرَّحِيمُ {22} هُوَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْمَلِكُ الْقُدُّوسُ السَّلَامُ الْمُؤْمِنُ الْمُهَيْمِنُ الْعَزِيزُ الْجَبَّارُ الْمُتَكَبِّرُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ {23} هُوَ اللَّهُ الْخَالِقُ الْبَارِئُ الْمُصَوِّرُ لَهُ الْأَسْمَاء الْحُسْنَى يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ {24} 59:22] He is God, the one besides whom there's no other God, Knower of the unseen and seen He is the All Merciful the Mercy Giving [59:23] He is God, the one besides whom there's no other God, the King, the All Holy, the Peace, the Faithful, the Guardian, the OverPowering, the Irrisistible, the Sublime Highly exalted is God above all that they associate as gods. [59:24] He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner. To Him belongs the most excellent names. All that is in the heavens and the earth gives due exaltation to Him. For He is the OverPowering, the All Wise And God knows best Edited by Meditations - 29 October 2009 at 10:25pm |
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He said : My Lord, Open for me my heart, And make easy my mission , And release the knot of my tongue, So they understand my words . Surat AtTur ( 20 ) : 25-28
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Meditations
Senior Member
Joined: 16 November 2002 Online Status: Offline Posts: 227 |
Posted: 30 October 2009 at 12:32am |
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Originally posted by Ron Webb The problem I have with that explanation is that it defeats the whole purpose of the Quran, which is supposed to be the literal word of God without the need for human interpretation But you surely accept language as the method to interpret and understand the literal word of God, The words and rules of the language has been transmitted and explained to you by a human God didn't reveal to you that words like cow, sun, come, go ...etc. have these meanings Why would you accept a human interpretation and aid to understand the words of God, and not accept God's messenger interpretation as well ?
Originally posted by Ron Webb If we assume that Muhammad's entire life was an expression of Allah's law, then most of that law has vanished. We have only a random collection of hadith and sunna, whatever happened to be remembered and passed on orally. Most of what he said and did is unrecorded, and we rely on the abilities of Muslim scholars for the authenticity of even what little we have. How do we know that essential parts are not missing or corrupt? This above paragraph shows you have little knowledge of sunna, and to which level of detail the life of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) was recorder We know how he prayed, dressed, walked, talked, drank, liked , didn't like, Throughout history, no other human's life was recorded in detail as this of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) , no family tree was documented and recorded like his family as well But for the sake of discussion, I'll discuss only actions/hadiths related to practices , would that be ok with you ?
Originally posted by Ron Webb The idea that Allah would give us an actual text (the Quran) in His own words, and that He would guarantee the preservation of that text for all time, is a good idea and an appealing one. you need find out first if this is an 'idea' or a fact if it's proven to be a fact to you, this following it would be the logical action Originally posted by Ron Webb The addition of the hadith as a sort of man-made appendix or supplement to Allah's words makes a mockery of that idea. This statement doesn't carry weight because we believe Prophet Muhammad actions/words was not man-made Plus, as pointed above, you already accept human interpretation to understand the words of God |
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He said : My Lord, Open for me my heart, And make easy my mission , And release the knot of my tongue, So they understand my words . Surat AtTur ( 20 ) : 25-28
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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member 
Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 984 |
Posted: 30 October 2009 at 8:53am |
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Originally posted by Meditations
It seems the Globe and Mail is one of canada's popular newspapers, I didn't find anything in it today tht talks about violence comitted by someone for following Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) words in hadiths, please point it if you find any You picked the wrong day to offer such a challenge:
We don't do what we see 'suitable' we as servants do what God instruct us to
Are you a prophet? Unless Allah is instructing you directly, you have to decide for yourself what is suitable in a particular situation. You are given certain general principles in the Quran, but you have to choose which principles apply and how you should apply them.
In general, you can follow his example if you think it is reasonable to do so in your circumstances. In some instances it might be debatable whether his example makes sense in the modern context; This is a self contradictory phrase, if the I think it's reasonable in my circumstances, then it makes sense to me, then it will not be debatable that it makes sense or not. If you think it's reasonable, and I don't, then we could debate the issue, i.e. it is debatable. There is no purpose in debating prayer because it is a personal matter and nobody's business but your own; but I didn't want to just make the bald statement to "do what you think is reasonable" because that might imply support for all sorts of nonsense, e.g. Mr. Abdullah's justification of theft based on hadith.
It was pointed to you before, so it's surprising that again you say Qur'an doesn't say Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was not a perfect model
Yes, and as I said before, the Quran says that Muhammad was an excellent role model, not a perfect role model. There's a difference.
Not salah only that we're disucssing, all main practices, seyam ( fasting ) , hajj ( pilgrimage )
These all were done in a specific way, you claim that all these don't have to be performed in that specific way that all muslims agreed on for the past 14 centuries ? Not if Allah did not command it. Tradition is not law.
That wasn't an answer to what I'm saying, but since you said so, what do you think Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) authority is ? and what is any Messenger from God authority is ?
Muhammad was an earthly leader. He may have been divinely appointed, but he is not himself divine, as the Quran makes clear. His authority is therefore like all other earthly leaders: it ends when someone else takes his place, or when he himself ends, i.e. when he dies. |
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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member
Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 984 |
Posted: 30 October 2009 at 9:31am |
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Originally posted by Meditations
Originally posted by Ron Webb Yes, I remember reading that and being puzzled by it. Can you (or anyone) explain to me what "showing off" has to do with polytheism or with "setting up partners"? I understand that showing off could be a sin, but why would Muhammad call it "shirk"? Because in Islam, all actions ( heart action or body actions ) are judged by the intentions, and for each If someone is giving charity to be famous for being charitable, he's not paying charity for the sake of God From the outside, he's doing an act of worship to God, but in reality, he's doing it for himself/others three kinds of people are some of the first to be thrown in hellfire a scholar who taught so it's to be said he's a scholar / knowledgable a warrior who fought to be said he's brave a charity giving person who gave money to be said he's a generous Hope this explains it Not at all. The question I asked was, what does "showing off" have to do with polytheism or "setting up partners"?
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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member
Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 984 |
Posted: 30 October 2009 at 10:55am |
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Originally posted by Meditations
What do you mean by they have the same God? christians ? Both Christianity and Islam have their roots in Judaism. Why would the Christian concept of God be "weaker" than in Islam?
We believe shaytan ( satan ) existed before humans were on earth, still exists, and will still exist until judgment day and after it in hellfire
Does that imply to you in anyway that we consider satan ( whom we curse ) a partner with God ? First of all, Satan is clearly an adversary, not a partner to God; God does not share His power and authority with Satan. But more importantly, it is God (via the Quran, I assume), not you, who makes these claims about Satan. Frankly, Satan does seem to be a partner of sorts, a "sparring partner" in the struggle of good versus evil. But it's God's claim, not yours, so you're off the hook.
Originally posted by Ron Webb
So aside from the name of the entity to which we address our prayers, what could we think or do that would constitute "setting up partners"? We tend to know about God from what God tells us Again, many of the things in your list would be just silly when applied to an ordinary man (I'll use that phrase since "mortal" seems to be problematic). God could not have been cautioning us not to believe that an ordinary man is the Creator of the universe, or "overpowering" (all-powerful), because anyone making such a claim would be easily disproven. As for the rest, if those are the things that we could think or do that would constitute "setting up partners", then it seems to me that Muslims are guilty of quite a few of them:
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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Hayfa
Female Islam Senior Member 
Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1758 |
Posted: 30 October 2009 at 11:28am |
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Not at all. The question I asked was, what does "showing off" have to do with polytheism or "setting up partners"?
Polytheism or 'setting up partners' because your goal is NOT for the pleasure of Allah. As Muslims we should do things soley for Allah. I want the praise of others. And therefore i am giving something of value that should be Allah's alone. There is a very good book on Diseases of the Heart by Hamza Yusuf which I recommend. This falls under ostentation. We, as Muslim must always as they say 'check our motivations at the door.' For instance, if I help out a friend, is it that Allah will be pleased or am I doing it so my friend recognizes and praises me? If I do it for Allah, ultimately, inside of myself, I become a more pure / better person and closer to Allah. And things like boasting and self-promotion are giving my time to someone or something that does not bring me closer to Allah. And therefore I am giving that more weight than pleasing Allah. |
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Hayfa
Female Islam Senior Member
Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1758 |
Posted: 30 October 2009 at 11:33am |
For instance a person may be "known" as the Al- Muyamin- the Protector by his community. This is no way is saying this person is God. You are back to the semantics. Which will never end unless you can accept that people use the words in a different manner then you. I think you like to argue on semantics... lol  |
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member
Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 984 |
Posted: 30 October 2009 at 12:52pm |
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Originally posted by Meditations
Originally posted by Ron Webb Muslims generally respond by saying that Muhammad does not define the law, he only receives it from Allah and communicates it to us, not just in the Quran (his Message) but in his daily life. The problem I have with that explanation is that it defeats the whole purpose of the Quran, which is supposed to be the literal word of God without the need for human interpretation But you surely accept language as the method to interpret and understand the literal word of God, The words and rules of the language has been transmitted and explained to you by a human God didn't reveal to you that words like cow, sun, come, go ...etc. have these meanings Why would you accept a human interpretation and aid to understand the words of God, and not accept God's messenger interpretation as well ? Yes, if I needed the definition of a word, I could consult a (modern-day) Arabic speaker; and if he too had difficulty, he could examine how the word is used in ancient texts, including the hadith. But there's a difference between the definition of a word and the interpretation of an idea or event. God's messenger's interpretation of Allah's words is just more words, and I can't believe that Muhammad's words would be better or more understandable than Allah's.
Originally posted by Ron Webb If we assume that Muhammad's entire life was an expression of Allah's law, then most of that law has vanished. We have only a random collection of hadith and sunna, whatever happened to be remembered and passed on orally. Most of what he said and did is unrecorded, and we rely on the abilities of Muslim scholars for the authenticity of even what little we have. How do we know that essential parts are not missing or corrupt? This above paragraph shows you have little knowledge of sunna, and to which level of detail the life of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) was recorder We know how he prayed, dressed, walked, talked, drank, liked , didn't like, How many words did Muhammad speak in his entire lifetime? And how many of those words do we actually have? I stand by my original statement: most of what he said and did is lost. It's not like the hadith and sunna are representative summaries or thoughtfully edited versions of the whole "divine" revelation that was supposedly his life, either. No one during Muhammad's lifetime sat down with him and made a list of all the important events and sayings that he felt ought to be passed on to future generations. What we have, we have by pure chance. In fact, we're not even sure of what we have. Scholars debate endlessly over whether a particular hadith is "strong" or "weak" or something in between.
Originally posted by Ron Webb The addition of the hadith as a sort of man-made appendix or supplement to Allah's words makes a mockery of that idea. This statement doesn't carry weight because we believe Prophet Muhammad actions/words was not man-made Well, if it's divine revelation, it's pretty a slipshod way of handling it. Compared to the Quran, it's an embarrassment. Of course, that's just my opinion. |
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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member
Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 984 |
Posted: 30 October 2009 at 6:37pm |
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Originally posted by Hayfa Ron we are back to semantics. Yup, but in this case semantics are important. The Quran says it is a great sin to "set up partners" with Allah. I am trying to find out what Muslims think is the meaning of that phrase.
When we use the 99 Names for Allah.. it is not to say that if a person is known for that characteristic / concept / idea it is not like we are saying they are Allah.
I guess you should talk to Meditations about that. He was the one who suggested it. |
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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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