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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Topic: Muhammad as a partner with Allah
    Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:06pm

Muslims claim they do not treat Muhammad as a partner to Allah, but I've never been able to reconcile that claim with their actual doctrine or practice.  Clearly, Muhammad occupies a central place in Islam, unlike any other human, but in many ways similar to Allah.  To be sure, Muslims will acknowledge that Muhammad is subordinate to Allah, but the sin of shirk does not stipulate equal partnership, and it seems to me that a junior partner is still a partner.

Consider the following: Muhammad is treated with a degree of reverence that for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from that for Allah Himself.  To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy.  Muslim prayers, though not directly addressed to the Prophet, mention him frequently.  He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine.  In fact, his statements and his actions are doctrine: the hadith and sunna sit on your bookshelf alongside the Quran, and are considered similarly authoritative.

So my question is this: how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah?  How can I tell that you are not committing shirk?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:55pm
Hello Ron,

Welcome back. Hope you have been well.

From my understanding we follow the role model of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Which is why we have the sunnah etc. How else can we do that

Now are there people who take it too far.. probably. Others may be able to answer that better than I. But can it cross the line... yes it can.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Nur_Ilahi
 
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2009 at 9:52pm
Hi Ron,

Long time no see.

As a starter, I looked up the meaning of partner in the dictionary

It stated - A person who shares or is associated with another in some action or endeavor; sharer; associate.

In Islam, it is a shirk to associate a partner to Allah. The One God of the whole Universe, The Beginning, The End, The Eternal, The source of LIfe and Death.

Now is there any proof that Muhammad shares any of the activity of
Allah Al-Khaliq - Allah The Creator? Allah Ar-Rahman - Allah Most Gracious, Allah Ar-Raheem - Most Merciful, Allah Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving, Allahuakbar - Allah the Greatest?

It is Allah Ar-Raheem that chose Muhammad as the Pinnacle of Creations and it is He that had given him the best position of a human being, and it was He that brought Muhammad up to HIm. All these positions were provided none other than to His Beloved Servant, HIs Beloved Messenger Muhammad Salallahualaihiwassalam.

It is the requirement of Allah that we obey His Messenger, His Slave and His beloved.

Back to your question, how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah?

Fat hope! This clearly contradicts the Shahadah - LAILAHAILALLAH.
There is no God but Allah - A God with no partners, no associates - Al-Ahad!

Therefore, it is a waste of time to answer your question.

ALLAH IS ONE! PERIOD!
A true religion worship the Creator of the whole universe. A false one worship a Creation of the Creator.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2009 at 5:30pm

Originally posted by Hayfa

From my understanding we follow the role model of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Which is why we have the sunnah etc. How else can we do that

The Quran says that Muhammad was "an excellent role model", and perhaps he might have been in seventh century Arabia.  But it doesn't say he is perfect or above criticism, and it certainly doesn't say his way is the best or the only possible way to live.

The Quran requires Muslims to "follow the messenger", i.e. Muhammad in his capacity as the conveyor of Allah's message, the Quran.  It does not imply any authority beyond that of the message itself.  Surely to believe otherwise, i.e. to suggest that Allah had shared His authority with Muhammad, would be to commit shirk.

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Now is there any proof that Muhammad shares any of the activity of [Allah]?

I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah.  I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did.  I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture.  Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2009 at 5:33am
Originally posted by

I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah.  I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did. 

There shows your ignorance. How do we treat ignorance? By learning, studying or reading. Perhaps as a start you could start here - just a gist of his noble characters and why Allah prefers him above others.
http://www.mohammad-pbuh.com/3/bestofcreation.htm
Originally posted by

.  I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture.  Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself?
The Qur'an is the message, while the Hadith is the verbal translation of the message into pragmatic terms, as exemplified by the Prophet. While the Qur'an is the metaphysical basis of the Sunnah, the Sunnah is the practical demonstration of the precepts laid down in the Qur'an.

The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message. That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following:

[Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.] (An-Nur 24:54)

This verse clearly tells us the overriding importance of Hadith to Muslims. They should be eager to learn and follow the teachings of the Prophet as expressed in Hadith. If we are negligent in this respect, it is we who have to answer before Allah.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1158658489489&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout
A true religion worship the Creator of the whole universe. A false one worship a Creation of the Creator.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2009 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message. That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following:

[Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.] (An-Nur 24:54)

As the sura says, the Messenger's duty was only to convey the message clearly.  He was not to add anything to it -- neither explanations nor illustrations nor anything else.  If further explanations or illustrations had been necessary, surely Allah would have provided them.  Or are you suggesting that Muhammad was better at explaining and illustrating than Allah? 
 
Can you give me an example of something in the Quran that you think is unclear on its own, and in need of further explanation or illustration?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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honeto
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2009 at 5:18pm
Ron,
In my understanding the question is: Mohammed (pbuh) a partner as what?
We all can be partners with God in goodness but that will not mean we are thus equal or nearly equal to God. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) or Prophet Jesus (pbuh) were partners with Allah to bring good to mankind. That in no way meant they somehow achieved status equal to Allah (Astagfarullah).
 
Allah says in the Quran, that those are servents raised to honor, by Allah.
There is a very clear distinction in mind and heart of people like myself, that Allah is the only Creator, while everyone else is His creation. And the prophet is His chosen person to lead mankind toward the right, till the end of time.
Same time there is no other messege in saying that after God, the Prophet is next in terms of respect and love of a Muslim. In no way a Muslim ever holds the Prophet as an object during his prayer or worship,nor he directs his worship in anyway whatsoever toward him.
You are right about Prophet's name coming during the course of Salat when we recite various parts. You probably also know that Prophet Abraham's name comes in a Muslm's salat many times too!! not to mention even Satan's name as well when we say"Aa'ozdhobillahe minaShaitanirRajeem" meaning I seek refuge with Allah from the Satan. So you see, yes you hear the name of the Prophet mentioned, but the important thing is to know what is being said. That is more important and explains, why is he being mentioned. And you will see, that it is when a Muslim is asking Allah to shower His blessings upon the prophet and those who followed him. I don't see any where in a Muslim's prayer (Salat) that it says anything that reflects that he is being elevated or praised along God.
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 05 October 2009 at 5:50pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2009 at 6:20pm

Originally posted by honeto

We all can be partners with God in goodness but that will not mean we are thus equal to God. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) or Prophet Jesus (pbuh) were partners with Allah to bring good to mankind. That in no way meant they somehow achieved status equal to Allah (Astagfarullah).

No, I'm not suggesting that anyone regards them as equals.  What I'm saying is that equality is not a criterion for shirk.  Shirk is about partnership, the sharing (equal or not) of divine attributes such as authority, power or honour.
 

There is a very clear distinctionin mind and heart of people like myself, that Allah is the only Creator, while everyone else is His creation.

Yes, it is clear that Allah did not share His creative power; but did He share His authority to make divine law, or His capacity to express it in human terms?

And prophet is His chosen person to lead mankind toward the right, till the end of times.

Is there anything in the Quran that says that Muhammad will lead mankind till the end of times?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2009 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb in black

Muslims claim they do not treat Muhammad as a partner to Allah, but I've never been able to reconcile that claim with their actual doctrine or practice.

How would we know? May be you have been hanging out with not too knowledgeable Muslims in your country I am afraid...you need to discount the devolution some of those might have gone through in the days of their bondage of the colonialism in their lives...

but still you need to describe what have you observed so it could be clarified ...

  Clearly, Muhammad occupies a central place in Islam, unlike any other human, but in many ways similar to Allah.  To be sure, Muslims will acknowledge that Muhammad is subordinate to Allah, but the sin of shirk does not stipulate equal partnership, and it seems to me that a junior partner is still a partner. 

Central as Human being of course not divine. just the slave; How  does slave gets to be junior partner?

You are  trying to be prosecutor , judge and jury all at the same time!

You have failed to present any evidence and have reached to your indictment , you are not a juvenile to act that way?

There are sixty four signs in Quran (http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/ ) just add partner in the search/ that clearly preclude this assumption of yours! ...As a matter fact this flies in the face of Allah's rejection of  Christianity's main argument of trinitarian partnership theme

If you study the daily salaat x5  that has a supplication at the end that gives privileged position to Prophet Abraham after declaring there is no partnership to Allah and Mhmd being Allah's slave and a messenger...

Consider the following: Muhammad is treated with a degree of reverence that for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from that for Allah Himself.

People in his time recognized God due to Mhmd's character, efforts and struggles unmatched in the annals of prophetic efforts and accepted the words he got. What they saw must be a lovable soul and they did give him what he deserved the love and reverence,

He was the only messenger who had completed the task at hand... still was concerned and worried as protector for his nation till eternity like a father more loving than real fathers when it came to save and redeem.

  To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy.

Not a new standard as regards to Allah and his prophets...The people who insult the prophets are the party of Satan and regard this as blasphemy is self explanatory; any one dissing your beloved will invite the condemnation ...It same about everything else in this world...What is so strange?

  Muslim prayers, though not directly addressed to the Prophet, mention him frequently.

Well that was what he was told to practice by the boss(Allah) And he let the believers in on the preferred and accepted process! Consider this like a investment policy, say peace(salaam) one time and u find peace ten folds... which believer would not like to have this bargain?

He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine.

In fact, his statements and his actions are doctrine: the hadith and sunna sit on your bookshelf alongside the Quran, and are considered similarly authoritative.

According to the Prophet the Hadith were not to be recorded while Quran was being revealed to keep Quranic authority perspective clearly supreme...That should tell you something ...

What kind of argument is that Hadith and  Quran are next to each other on Muslim household shelf?

It is absolutely a laughable argument... They are separate books and class ... I have bible and book of Mormon and few others texts sitting on the same shelf what difference does that make?

Would you have liked if  Muslim had done the same as the Christian did to theirs, mix up Jesus's hadith and sunna with what God had revealed to him? Then he did not establish anything before his going away...

So my question is this: how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah? 

It is a very sly proposition cuz you are going into a hypothesis that would be similar world that was created by merging Christian dogma with Roman's mythological religion!

It would be a sepia version of Christians or Muhammadans (if the 64 signs had been taken out of the Quranic narratives I can't think how) as the westerner colonist used to label the vanquished Muslims...To get there you will need to revise the world history also...That is a tall order..There would be no Muslim and Islamicity to read this!

By now there will be a new concoction a cross between +tains and so called Mhmdns or may be not if the so called Muhammadans had been on their war path without mercy probably there would be no Christians left in the 7th/ 8th century Mhmdn empire...Any more of your hypothesis...

How can I tell that you are not committing shirk?PinchOuch

Who the heck would worry about shirk? the concept would be out of the lexicon...



Edited by Sign*Reader - 08 October 2009 at 7:13pm
Cycle of Human Destiny: From Faith> Courage>Liberty>Abundance> Selfishness>Complacency>Apathy>Immorality>Bondage>back to Faith or Extinction...
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2009 at 1:07am


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 08 October 2009 at 7:28pm
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