IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Muhammad as a partner with Allah

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Ron Webb
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Topic: Muhammad as a partner with Allah
Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:06pm

Muslims claim they do not treat Muhammad as a partner to Allah, but I've never been able to reconcile that claim with their actual doctrine or practice. Clearly, Muhammad occupies a central place in Islam, unlike any other human, but in many ways similar to Allah. To be sure, Muslims will acknowledge that Muhammad is subordinate to Allah, but the sin of shirk does not stipulate equal partnership, and it seems to me that a junior partner is still a partner.

Consider the following: Muhammad is treated with a degree of reverence that for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from that for Allah Himself. To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy. Muslim prayers, though not directly addressed to the Prophet, mention him frequently. He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine. In fact, his statements and his actions are doctrine: the hadith and sunna sit on your bookshelf alongside the Quran, and are considered similarly authoritative.

So my question is this: how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah? How can I tell that you are not committing shirk?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Hayfa
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Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:55pm

Hello Ron,

Welcome back. Hope you have been well.

From my understanding we follow the role model of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Which is why we have the sunnah etc. How else can we do that

Now are there people who take it too far.. probably. Others may be able to answer that better than I. But can it cross the line... yes it can.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 03 October 2009 at 9:52pm

Hi Ron,

Long time no see.

As a starter, I looked up the meaning of partner in the dictionary

It stated - A person who shares or is associated with another in some action or endeavor; sharer; associate.

In Islam, it is a shirk to associate a partner to Allah. The One God of the whole Universe, The Beginning, The End, The Eternal, The source of LIfe and Death.

Now is there any proof that Muhammad shares any of the activity of
Allah Al-Khaliq - Allah The Creator? Allah Ar-Rahman - Allah Most Gracious, Allah Ar-Raheem - Most Merciful, Allah Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving, Allahuakbar - Allah the Greatest?

It is Allah Ar-Raheem that chose Muhammad as the Pinnacle of Creations and it is He that had given him the best position of a human being, and it was He that brought Muhammad up to HIm. All these positions were provided none other than to His Beloved Servant, HIs Beloved Messenger Muhammad Salallahualaihiwassalam.

It is the requirement of Allah that we obey His Messenger, His Slave and His beloved.

Back to your question, how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah?

Fat hope! This clearly contradicts the Shahadah - LAILAHAILALLAH.
There is no God but Allah - A God with no partners, no associates - Al-Ahad!

Therefore, it is a waste of time to answer your question.

ALLAH IS ONE! PERIOD!

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 04 October 2009 at 5:30pm

Originally posted by Hayfa

From my understanding we follow the role model of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Which is why we have the sunnah etc. How else can we do that

The Quran says that Muhammad was "an excellent role model", and perhaps he might have been in seventh century Arabia. But it doesn't say he is perfect or above criticism, and it certainly doesn't say his way is the best or the only possible way to live.

The Quran requires Muslims to "follow the messenger", i.e. Muhammad in his capacity as the conveyor of Allah's message, the Quran. It does not imply any authority beyond that of the message itself. Surely to believe otherwise, i.e. to suggest that Allah had shared His authority with Muhammad, would be to commit shirk.

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Now is there any proof that Muhammad shares any of the activity of [Allah]?

I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah. I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did. I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture. Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 05 October 2009 at 5:33am

Originally posted by

I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah. I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did.

There shows your ignorance. How do we treat ignorance? By learning, studying or reading. Perhaps as a start you could start here - just a gist of his noble characters and why Allah prefers him above others.
http://www.mohammad-pbuh.com/3/bestofcreation.htm

Originally posted by

. I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture. Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself?

The Qur'an is the message, while the Hadith is the verbal translation of the message into pragmatic terms, as exemplified by the Prophet. While the Qur'an is the metaphysical basis of the Sunnah, the Sunnah is the practical demonstration of the precepts laid down in the Qur'an.

The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message. That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following:

[Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.] (An-Nur 24:54)

This verse clearly tells us the overriding importance of Hadith to Muslims. They should be eager to learn and follow the teachings of the Prophet as expressed in Hadith. If we are negligent in this respect, it is we who have to answer before Allah.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1158658489489&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 05 October 2009 at 4:40pm

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message. That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following:

[Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.] (An-Nur 24:54)

As the sura says, the Messenger's duty was only to convey the message clearly. He was not to add anything to it -- neither explanations nor illustrations nor anything else. If further explanations or illustrations had been necessary, surely Allah would have provided them. Or are you suggesting that Muhammad was better at explaining and illustrating than Allah?

Can you give me an example of something in the Quran that you think is unclear on its own, and in need of further explanation or illustration?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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honeto

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Posted: 05 October 2009 at 5:18pm

Ron,

In my understanding the question is: Mohammed (pbuh) a partner as what?

We all can be partners with God in goodness but that will not mean we are thus equal or nearly equal to God. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) or Prophet Jesus (pbuh) were partners with Allah to bring good to mankind. That in no way meant they somehow achieved status equal to Allah (Astagfarullah).

Allah says in the Quran, that those are servents raised to honor, by Allah.

There is a very clear distinction in mind and heart of people like myself, that Allah is the only Creator, while everyone else is His creation. And the prophet is His chosen person to lead mankind toward the right, till the end of time.

Same time there is no other messege in saying that after God, the Prophet is next in terms of respect and love of a Muslim. In no way a Muslim ever holds the Prophet as an object during his prayer or worship,nor he directs his worship in anyway whatsoever toward him.

You are right about Prophet's name coming during the course of Salat when we recite various parts. You probably also know that Prophet Abraham's name comes in a Muslm's salat many times too!! not to mention even Satan's name as well when we say"Aa'ozdhobillahe minaShaitanirRajeem" meaning I seek refuge with Allah from the Satan. So you see, yes you hear the name of the Prophet mentioned, but the important thing is to know what is being said. That is more important and explains, why is he being mentioned. And you will see, that it is when a Muslim is asking Allah to shower His blessings upon the prophet and those who followed him. I don't see any where in a Muslim's prayer (Salat) that it says anything that reflects that he is being elevated or praised along God.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 05 October 2009 at 5:50pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 05 October 2009 at 6:20pm

Originally posted by honeto

We all can be partners with God in goodness but that will not mean we are thus equal to God. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) or Prophet Jesus (pbuh) were partners with Allah to bring good to mankind. That in no way meant they somehow achieved status equal to Allah (Astagfarullah).

No, I'm not suggesting that anyone regards them as equals. What I'm saying is that equality is not a criterion for shirk. Shirk is about partnership, the sharing (equal or not) of divine attributes such as authority, power or honour.

There is a very clear distinctionin mind and heart of people like myself, that Allah is the only Creator, while everyone else is His creation.

Yes, it is clear that Allah did not share His creative power; but did He share His authority to make divine law, or His capacity to express it in human terms?

And prophet is His chosen person to lead mankind toward the right, till the end of times.

Is there anything in the Quran that says that Muhammad will lead mankind till the end of times?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Topic: Muhammad as a partner with Allah Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:06pm
	Muslims claim they do not treat Muhammad as a partner to Allah, but I've never been able to reconcile that claim with their actual doctrine or practice. Clearly, Muhammad occupies a central place in Islam, unlike any other human, but in many ways similar to Allah. To be sure, Muslims will acknowledge that Muhammad is subordinate to Allah, but the sin of shirk does not stipulate equal partnership, and it seems to me that a junior partner is still a partner. Consider the following: Muhammad is treated with a degree of reverence that for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from that for Allah Himself. To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy. Muslim prayers, though not directly addressed to the Prophet, mention him frequently. He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine. In fact, his statements and his actions are doctrine: the hadith and sunna sit on your bookshelf alongside the Quran, and are considered similarly authoritative. So my question is this: how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah? How can I tell that you are not committing shirk?
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:55pm
	Hello Ron, Welcome back. Hope you have been well. From my understanding we follow the role model of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Which is why we have the sunnah etc. How else can we do that Now are there people who take it too far.. probably. Others may be able to answer that better than I. But can it cross the line... yes it can.
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
	IP Logged

Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 03 October 2009 at 9:52pm
	Hi Ron, Long time no see. As a starter, I looked up the meaning of partner in the dictionary It stated - A person who shares or is associated with another in some action or endeavor; sharer; associate. In Islam, it is a shirk to associate a partner to Allah. The One God of the whole Universe, The Beginning, The End, The Eternal, The source of LIfe and Death. Now is there any proof that Muhammad shares any of the activity of Allah Al-Khaliq - Allah The Creator? Allah Ar-Rahman - Allah Most Gracious, Allah Ar-Raheem - Most Merciful, Allah Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving, Allahuakbar - Allah the Greatest? It is Allah Ar-Raheem that chose Muhammad as the Pinnacle of Creations and it is He that had given him the best position of a human being, and it was He that brought Muhammad up to HIm. All these positions were provided none other than to His Beloved Servant, HIs Beloved Messenger Muhammad Salallahualaihiwassalam. It is the requirement of Allah that we obey His Messenger, His Slave and His beloved. Back to your question, how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were* a partner to Allah?* Fat hope! This clearly contradicts the Shahadah - LAILAHAILALLAH. There is no God but Allah - A God with no partners, no associates - Al-Ahad! Therefore, it is a waste of time to answer your question. ALLAH IS ONE! PERIOD!
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 04 October 2009 at 5:30pm
	*Originally posted by Hayfa* From my understanding we follow the role model of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Which is why we have the sunnah etc. How else can we do that The Quran says that Muhammad was "an excellent role model", and perhaps he might have been in seventh century Arabia. But it doesn't say he is perfect or above criticism, and it certainly doesn't say his way is the best or the only possible way to live. The Quran requires Muslims to "follow the messenger", i.e. Muhammad in his capacity as the conveyor of Allah's message, the Quran. It does not imply any authority beyond that of the message itself. Surely to believe otherwise, i.e. to suggest that Allah had shared His authority with Muhammad, would be to commit shirk. *Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* Now is there any proof that Muhammad shares any of the activity of [Allah]? I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah. I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did. I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture. Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself?
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 05 October 2009 at 5:33am
	*Originally posted by* I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah. I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did. There shows your ignorance. How do we treat ignorance? By learning, studying or reading. Perhaps as a start you could start here - just a gist of his noble characters and why Allah prefers him above others. http://www.mohammad-pbuh.com/3/bestofcreation.htm *Originally posted by* . I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture. Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself? The Qur'an is the message, while the Hadith is the verbal translation of the message into pragmatic terms, as exemplified by the Prophet. While the Qur'an is the metaphysical basis of the Sunnah, the Sunnah is the practical demonstration of the precepts laid down in the Qur'an. The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message. That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following: [Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.] (An-Nur 24:54) This verse clearly tells us the overriding importance of Hadith to Muslims. They should be eager to learn and follow the teachings of the Prophet as expressed in Hadith. If we are negligent in this respect, it is we who have to answer before Allah. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1158658489489&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 05 October 2009 at 4:40pm
	*Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message. That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following: [Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.] (An-Nur 24:54) As the sura says, the Messenger's duty was only to convey the message clearly. He was not to add anything to it -- neither explanations nor illustrations nor anything else. If further explanations or illustrations had been necessary, surely Allah would have provided them. Or are you suggesting that Muhammad was better at explaining and illustrating than Allah? Can you give me an example of something in the Quran that you think is unclear on its own, and in need of further explanation or illustration?
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 05 October 2009 at 5:18pm
	Ron, In my understanding the question is: Mohammed (pbuh) a partner as what? We all can be partners with God in goodness but that will not mean we are thus equal or nearly equal to God. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) or Prophet Jesus (pbuh) were partners with Allah to bring good to mankind. That in no way meant they somehow achieved status equal to Allah (Astagfarullah). Allah says in the Quran, that those are servents raised to honor, by Allah. There is a very clear distinction in mind and heart of people like myself, that Allah is the only Creator, while everyone else is His creation. And the prophet is His chosen person to lead mankind toward the right, till the end of time. Same time there is no other messege in saying that after God, the Prophet is next in terms of respect and love of a Muslim. In no way a Muslim ever holds the Prophet as an object during his prayer or worship,nor he directs his worship in anyway whatsoever toward him. You are right about Prophet's name coming during the course of Salat when we recite various parts. You probably also know that Prophet Abraham's name comes in a Muslm's salat many times too!! not to mention even Satan's name as well when we say"Aa'ozdhobillahe minaShaitanirRajeem" meaning I seek refuge with Allah from the Satan. So you see, yes you hear the name of the Prophet mentioned, but the important thing is to know what is being said. That is more important and explains, why is he being mentioned. And you will see, that it is when a Muslim is asking Allah to shower His blessings upon the prophet and those who followed him. I don't see any where in a Muslim's prayer (Salat) that it says anything that reflects that he is being elevated or praised along God. Hasan Edited by honeto - 05 October 2009 at 5:50pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 05 October 2009 at 6:20pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* We all can be partners with God in goodness but that will not mean we are thus equal to God. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) or Prophet Jesus (pbuh) were partners with Allah to bring good to mankind. That in no way meant they somehow achieved status equal to Allah (Astagfarullah). No, I'm not suggesting that anyone regards them as equals. What I'm saying is that equality is not a criterion for shirk. Shirk is about partnership, the sharing (equal or not) of divine attributes such as authority, power or honour. There is a very clear distinctionin mind and heart of people like myself, that Allah is the only Creator, while everyone else is His creation. Yes, it is clear that Allah did not share His creative power; but did He share His authority to make divine law, or His capacity to express it in human terms? And prophet is His chosen person to lead mankind toward the right, till the end of times. Is there anything in the Quran that says that Muhammad will lead mankind till the end of times?
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged