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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Basis of Sunni_Shia discord Post Reply Post New Topic
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najeeb
 
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Quote najeeb Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 9:17pm
salam Mr Ayubi,
you state that twelver shia is a cult, while it has been recognized as a legitimate madhab just like the four sunnis madhab. so your belief is just a fallacy, and you are free to believe in all you want...you have that luxury...

you also state that twelver shia'a believe that 99% of sahaba became renegades which is another fallacy. i am not sure where you got this information from (certainly not from credible shia sources), but you can verify yourself its credibility.

You also state that all sahaba remained faithful. truthfully, this is the most illogical thing i have ever heard. what do you read?? or do you read at all?? you probably just listen to lecturers...

you believe that muawiyah is a sahabi, and therefore remained truthful to the prophet. the guy fought ali who is you consider a rightly guided caliph. i am sure if he fought abu bakr, umar or uthman, you would have made him a kafir! he sent specific instructions to his army to delay their intervention in medinah where uthman was threatened to death. he did not stop torturing those who rebelled against his tyranny. his son took his legacy and humiliated the family of the prophet...what kind of sahabi is this??? READ YOUR BOOKS AND NAHJUL BALAGHA to know the true nature of muaawiyah! want proof??? here you go, and go ahead, deny them as well. denial is nothing new.

here are some of the proof:

Amr bin Aas said the following to Mu'awiya: "Avenging Uthman's blood was just an excuse, we are desirous of worldly power, upon hearing this Mu'awiya agreed to hand over Egypt to Amr".

"Prior to the battle of Siffeen, 'Ali gave Jareer bin Abdullah a letter that said 'Mu'awiya give me bay'a and obey me, do not create fitnah in the Islamic State'. Mu'awiya replied to Jareer, 'If 'Ali makes me Governor over the provinces of Egypt and Syria I will give him bayya, on the condition that after him no one else is given bay'a save me".

Do you need more proofs that Mua'awiya did not care about the murder of Uthman? Read the testimony of Mua'awiya The Second, the son of Yazeed bin Mua'awiyah, regarding the true motives of his grand-father. This is recorded by many Sunni scholars.
"...When (Yazid) offered the kingdom (throne) to his son, Muawiyah the second, in order that the flag of caliphate continues to wave in the house of Abi Sufyan!!
After his death, Muawiyah the second, gathered the people on a well known day, he stood in them preaching, he said:

"My grandfather Muawiyah stripped the command from those who deserved it, and from one who is more justified of it, for his relation to the Messenger of Allah and his being first in Islam, and that is Ali Ibn Abi Talib, he (Muawiyah) took over it by your help as you are fully aware."

"Then following it my father Yazid wore the command after him, and he did not deserve it. He quarreled with the son of the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and by that he shortened his own life... He rode his whim and hope left him behind." Then he cried and continued:

"Surely, the greatest problems of us is our knowledge of his bad behavior and his awful ending, and that he killed the progeny (Itrah) of the Messenger of Allah, and he permitted drinking alcohol, and he fought in the sanctuary of Mecca, and destroyed the Ka'ba."

"And I am not the one who is dressing up for your command, nor the one to be responsible for your followers... You choose for yourselves..!!"

References:
    • Khulafaa al-Rasool, by Khalid Mohammed Khalid, p531
    • Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, end of Ch. 11, pp 336
    • Tareekh Khamees, Volume 2, page 301
    • Tareekh Ya'qubi, Volume 2, page 241
    • Yanabi al Mawaddah
so what kind of sahabi is this??? it is a shame for a muslim to believe in such a thing!

have you heard this hadith:
"Whoever obeys 'Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys 'Ali disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah"
من أطاعني فقد أطاع الله عز وجل ومن عصاني فقد عصى الله ومن أطاع عليا فقد أطاعني ومن عصى عليا فقد عصاني

well no need to talk about this any more..

i can talk for hours...but i still believe it is useless, unfortunately.

salam
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najeeb
 
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Quote najeeb Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 9:22pm
sorry the references did not come up..
'Amr bin Aas said the following to Mu'awiya: "Avenging Uthman's blood was just an excuse, we are desirous of worldly power, upon hearing this Mu'awiya agreed to hand over Egypt to Amr".
References:
• Ta'rikh Kamil Volume 2, page 139, "Dhikr Siffeen"

"Prior to the battle of Siffeen, 'Ali gave Jareer bin Abdullah a letter that said 'Mu'awiya give me bay'a and obey me, do not create fitnah in the Islamic State'. Mu'awiya replied to Jareer, 'If 'Ali makes me Governor over the provinces of Egypt and Syria I will give him bayya, on the condition that after him no one else is given bay'a save me".
References:
    • Ibn Kathir, in Al Bidayah Page 128 Volume 8

if you want more proof, let me know. as long as you listen..

let me ask you this: would a faithful sahabi hurt the family of the prophet??? what kind of faithfulness is this?

muaawiyah is the most obvious person that was not a true sahabi and the easiest to assimilate. if you can't accept this, then i am sorry.
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Ayubi1187
 
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 4:10am
Originally posted by najeeb

salam Mr Ayubi,
you state that twelver shia is a cult, while it has been recognized as a legitimate madhab just like the four sunnis madhab. so your belief is just a fallacy, and you are free to believe in all you want...you have that luxury...


Who recognized you and sens when? Al-tantawi? Im telling you if you put aside todays wannabes scholars you dont have nothing from our great scholars. So you can keep dreaming about being 5th madhab.

you also state that twelver shia'a believe that 99% of sahaba became renegades which is another fallacy. i am not sure where you got this information from (certainly not from credible shia sources), but you can verify yourself its credibility.


Name the good sahaba for me please all of them. And dont come to me with your own opinion. Do you consider Abu bakr sadiq(ra) the first legitimate caliph? Do you consider Umar ibn al-khatab(ra) as the legitimate second caliph? do you consider Uthman bin Afan(ra) the third legitimate caliph?

You also state that all sahaba remained faithful. truthfully, this is the most illogical thing i have ever heard. what do you read?? or do you read at all?? you probably just listen to lecturers....


What is it that is illogical? what do you read yourself Usool al-kafi? Bihar al-anwar? Najhul balagha?

you believe that muawiyah is a sahabi, and therefore remained truthful to the prophet.


Its not what i believe its what ahlul-sunnah believes.

the guy fought ali who is you consider a rightly guided caliph. i am sure if he fought abu bakr, umar or uthman, you would have made him a kafir! he sent specific instructions to his army to delay their intervention in medinah where uthman was threatened to death. he did not stop torturing those who rebelled against his tyranny. his son took his legacy and humiliated the family of the prophet...what kind of sahabi is this??? READ YOUR BOOKS AND NAHJUL BALAGHA to know the true nature of muaawiyah!


Do you men the selective hadith in our books that agree with you? weak, obscure or unknown hadith and books? najhul balagha what is that?


bla bla bla bla

And the refrence

    • Khulafaa al-Rasool, by Khalid Mohammed Khalid, p531 (Obscure sources)
    • Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, end of Ch. 11, pp 336 ( secondary sources)
    • Tareekh Khamees, Volume 2, page 301 (Obscure sources)
    • Tareekh Ya'qubi, Volume 2, page 241 ( pure Shia)
    • Yanabi al Mawaddah (Obscure sources, very popular shia refrens)

What kind of refrense is that? if you want to make accusations against sahaba bring evidence from primary source and not from every unknown and insignificant sunni book.
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 7:02am

Salam alakum brother Najeeb,

Beside the logical fallacies in Ayubi1187's previous post that you correctly pointed out, I can show you many other examples both in his previous posts, and many other's. In addition, I can show you many insulting and deragatory remarks and personal attacks he has made on myself and other Shia brothers on this forum. Of course, I am confused by this as my understanding was that this is not allowed. Here is the basis for my assumption

(from Discussion Guidelines)

" 2. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.

and

10.) We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants"

I could go on and on about his tactics, which are typical of the sect to which he belongs (i.e. Wahabi/Salafi), but I won't. Ever since I realized that his true intention is to attack the Shia (calling them "lunitics", a "cult", etc.)  and praise those those who oppressed and murdered the members of the Ahly Al'Bayt, I have refrained from responding to his name-calling and inflamatory remarks.

The sad thing is that there are educated members of the Ahly Al-Sunna on this forum (such as Jello, Rami and others) with which I have enjoyed discussing these issues in a respectcul manner,  and learned from. It is sad that one bad apple has to spoil the discussion.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Ayubi1187
 
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 8:00am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

I can show you many insulting and deragatory remarks and personal attacks he has made on myself and other Shia brothers on this forum.

I never made any personal attack. Im sorry if you are emotional and cant handle the truth.



I could go on and on about his tactics, which are typical of the sect to which he belongs (i.e. Wahabi/Salafi), but I won't. Ever since I realized that his true intention is to attack the Shia (calling them "lunitics", a "cult", etc.)  and praise those those who oppressed and murdered the members of the Ahly Al'Bayt,



Who are the oppressors in shiism yes it starts from the first rightly guided caliph Abu bakr(ra)the usurper of the caliphate, the oppressor of ahlul-bayt the stealer of fadak (from fatima(ra)) the forcer of baya upon Ali(ra)

The second rightly guided caliph Umar ibn al khatab(ra) the usurper of the caliphate, the killer of Fatimas(ra) child the burner of Fatimas(ra) house (very popular story in shiism). The dragger of Ali(ra) to Abu Bakr(ra) the taker of Alis(ra) daughter by force in marriage.

And whats their accusation against Aisha(Ra)? its to sick to write. I recommend people to visit this website www.shiachat.com and you will be enlightened about shims inshalallah, when you read couple forums about the rightly guided caliphs, the wifes of the prophet and about Quran you will understand how much Ali Zak hides from you about their religion.

Edited by Ayubi1187
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najeeb
 
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Quote najeeb Replybullet Posted: 18 June 2005 at 11:38am
mr ayubi, i am appalled by your ignorance.

the scriptures of the jews mentioned the coming of the prophet jesus and they disbelieved. the scriptures also foretold the coming of prophet muhammad and they disbelieved.

no matter how much proof i give you, even the most explicit ones. it won't matter. therefore i di not wish to engage myself in wasteful discussions.

salam
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