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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 22 June 2010 at 7:17pm
   Yes, but it makes no mention that the third component, the Holy Spirit, is also a part of this "triple theophany". In fact, it is stated that the "Spirit" simply led Jesus into the desert to fast and be tempted by the Devil. Nor is it stated that "This is my beloved Son...worship Him as part of the 'triune Godhead'" or something to that effect."
   What do you think is being referred to in Matthew as : "...and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove..."?
   The term "Godhead" implies that there is more than one God, which is false.
   John 10:30 "I and My Father are one." John 10:37-38 "If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe in Me. but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
   Really, this tit-for-tat back and forth trying to outdo the other's belief system is pointless in the end. Muslims will continue to believe that the Qur'an is the true word of God and that Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets and Christians will also continue to believe that Jesus Christ was no prophet but the literal Son of God who gave his life so that salvation would be available to all people, who do not deserve salvation based on their own works.
   Everyone has the freedom to follow and practice their own religion, or even lack of one, at least in the United States and the rest of the civilized world.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 22 June 2010 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,
   The difference between us is that you do not understand the Holy Trinity. I can understand why someone of a different faith would have trouble with it but as Christians we believe it is true. Jusus Christ was born of Mary but not fathered by Joseph. In fact, Joseph wanted to divorce Mary when he found that she was with child but an angel came to him and told him who Jesus really was. There was a purpose behind Jesus and His life and ministry. We Christians believe what the New Testament tells us, that Jesus Christ came to be the ultimate sacrifice that would do away with the old and the temple system as the temple would be pointless after Jesus Chrsit died to make salvation possible for everyone human because we do not deserve or merit salvation through our own human efforts. The apostle Paul wrote that if Christ had not died and been resurrected then our faith was in vain. To us Jesus is not just a prophet but the literal Son of God, and with God the Father and the Holy Spirit make up the Holy Trinity, that is of one substance because there is only one God. Other than that there really isn't anything I can say that will change anyone's mind as to their faith because that's what religion is, a matter of pure faith. I deeply respect Islam and am not trying to convert anyone, just say what my faith is. I also deeply respect Judaism for the reason that as a Christian I am also a Jew, as was Jesus Christ and his mother and father. It is just that Christians believe the Jewish Messiah has already come and the Jews do not. But God made a Holy Covenant between Himself and the Jews and I have no reason to believe that He has forgotten that Covenant. And I believe that Christians are also included in that Covenant after the birth, life and death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. That is my faith and it sustains me in my daily life. I hope that all is well with you and yours and wish you Peace and the Love of God, whose children we all are.
Larry


Larry,
I can understand a Muslim who dos not know Christianity may not understand what Christians mean by Trinity. But when you hear Christians being not so clear about trinity and are told to accept it as a mystry of faith, then there is a problem. And let me tell you this, my wife, a former Christian, and many other former Christians that I personally know here in the US and in Mexico have one thing very common they all say about Jesus and Trinity. Most of them say that they could not think of Jesus as God rather someone closer to God. And trinity was at times a mystery and we were told to believe in it as such.
When they were told how God is in Islam, i.e. God (God the Father in Christianity) is the Only One of One God. While holy spirit and Jesus are His creations serving Him, it all made sense.
And still, I understand that not all will believe but only those who God guides after they seek His forgiveness and guidance, God will guide them to His light and they will follow it to their own salvation.

Christians have nothing to sell more than the idea of a blood sacrifice, of Christ. If you take that out, they have nothing else left to sell, and I see it sell sometimes when one is too busy to do the understanding for themselves, rather they leave the thinking to other.
Salvation through blood sacrifice in Christianity has several problems.
1-you say Jesus is God, Jesus died to pay for your sins? It says at least two things:
a) God died, which cannot be so, God does not die.
b) NT says "he died for the sins of all the world. That says "all the world" it does not exclude anyone. So according to your book, his blood paid (if there is such a thing) "for not just your but for the whole world"
c) If someone's sins are already paid for what are they doing here, going through pain and sufferings, plus does that mean those thousands of priests that sexually abused thousands of innocent children have already been guaranteed salvation with God ( Christ's) blood sacrifice?
 
To the contrary to your claim, I find some Biblical quotes to be against your arguments: You remember where Jesus is quoted to have said, "if your hand commits a sin to cut it off from your body so you would not be thrown into the hell fire because of it" If we use two penny's worth of thought on that saying, it is very clear that if you sin, you will pay for it according to this quote. He would not have said such a thing if he taught that his blood will pay for the sins.

So my friend, if we follow what we just hear people repeating around us does not mean we are not to investigate and use our own mind a bit before falling for it blindly, or we will have our own self to blame, and of course to bear consequences.

We are God's creation, and I like to use proper term for what we are in reality and truth, His Creation.  God does not have children nor parents. I am His creation, and His servant, nothing more than that. May God guide us to the right, Ameen.

Hasan

Hasan


Edited by honeto - 22 June 2010 at 9:45pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 23 June 2010 at 12:46am
Hasan,

   I find your statements regarding Christianity as ill-informed and in great disrespect. You write that Christians "have nothing to sell more than the idea of a blood sacrifice of Christ."
   Well, in spite of your wife and your friends's ignorance about the Passion of Christ, He died in order to make salvation readily available to people who do not by themselves merit God's salvation. The other part they seem to misunderstand is that Jesus Christ was resurrected bodily three days after his death, unlike other "prophets" who are long dead and turned to dust.
   You even throw in the sexual abuse of children by some Catholic priests, like that represents Christianity? It represents Christianity just the same as suicide bombing terrorists and mass murderers of innocent people (like the 9/11 "martyrs", represent Islam).
   Much of the Qur'an is lifted directly from the Old Testament of Judaism and the New Testament of Jesus Christ. To say otherwise is ridiculous, especially that "no Arabic translation of the Bible was available to Muhammad". Or maybe he was drawn to the monotheism that he encountered among the Jewish and Christian travelers and business people who visited Mecca and the Kaaba while his family, held rights to certain functions at the Kaaba such as providing drinking water. Muhammad disliked the pagan Arabian gods such as Hubal and the moon god, Sin, among many others. As a matter of fact, Islam's calendar is based on the moon and not the sun, a relic of pre-Islamic moon-worshipping times.
   I guess that's all the Muslims have to "sell" also? Such as the fable that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba, when in reality it was constructed by the Nabateans.
   You state that "if we follow just what we hear people repeating around us does not mean that we are not to investigate and use our own mind before falling for it blindly..." I guess that's a pretty good representation of the views of many of the Muslims on this forum who parrot the same old misinformation concerning Christ and Christianity, as if they alone know the "truth" while "Christians" hang onto their "blood sacrifices", etc.
   Your distaste for and mocking of Christianity says a lot about you and your faith. Some Christians aren't alone in their hypocrises, they are well represented by some the followers of Islam as well. So much for the "Peoples of the Book" B.S. The misogynist views of women in the Qur'an are also bizarre. I don't think you will find the advice to "beat them" (women) if they don't do as they are expected, in the Bible. Instead Psalms declares that a good wife is more precious than rubies.
   So, we can go back and forth, treating each other as morons and infidels for not following the "correct" path. I guess that all depends on which path one finds oneself.
   As for me, the Messiah has already come and told us what we need to do to achieve salvation, simply by having faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Son of God, who will sit in judgment at the end of the world. I put my faith in a risen Lord and not in the recitals of a long dead and buried "prophet."
   Now you can see what it feels like to be mocked in your faith.


Edited by Larry - 23 June 2010 at 12:48am
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Quote I♥Jesus Replybullet Posted: 23 June 2010 at 3:02am
Originally posted by honeto

Christians have nothing to sell more than the idea of a blood sacrifice, of Christ. If you take that out, they have nothing else left to sell, and I see it sell sometimes when one is too busy to do the understanding for themselves, rather they leave the thinking to other.

Hello Hasan,
I understand why you think that way, but the penal substitution theory (blood atonement) is not the only understanding of the Christ's salvific work.  It is a minority, protestant opinion originating in John Calvin.  Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants do not accept penal substitution.  It really is the Calvinist (Reformed, Presbyterian) and Baptist churches.

One of the simplest explanations of why Jesus had to die on the cross and be raised from the dead was simply to demonstrate that life after death is real. There are several more, and I would be happy to participate in a thread on atonement if there is any Muslim interest in the subject.

If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 23 June 2010 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by Larry

   This is what you call proof of your statements? Of course the Trinity is not mentioned in the New Testament, it is understood and described through the writings of the New Testament. In the many instances where Jesus Christ is named Son of God, the Holy Spirit is described and God the Father and Jesus Christ being one, as I quoted in my earlier reply.
   If that's the best you can do to try and discredit the New Testament you have a long way to go. I am not a Muslim who has no trouble making the most tenuous and speculative "information" to "prove" that the New Testament is corrupted and that the Qur'an is the actual word of God.
   The point that you keep missing through your lack of understanding of the New Testament of Jesus Christ is that there is only ONE GOD and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all of one substance that is God.
   You can argue these points all you want, it is not going to change my thinking or beliefs. You're two-dimensional thinking will not uncover the true essence of God because you have no understanding of His true nature.


LOL Dude, you need to relax.  First of all, the information I provided proves quite succinctly that the New Testament has corruptions.  What else should we call it when a scribe adds phrases and even whole paragraphs (such as in Mark 16) to the text centuries after the document was originally written?  Would that not be an example of corruption? 

Second of all, you don't have to be so defensive.  I can see that you are very passionate about your beliefs, and I respect that.  I know that I cannot change your mind.  You have to change it yourself.  I can only show you my perspective. 

Thirdly, regarding my "two-dimensional" way of thinking, let me say that this is the result of what I feel is the ineffective and inefficient explanation of the trinity given by individual Christians and the Bible.  I fail to see how all three components of the trinity are of "one substance", especially when they have different characteristics, and even limitations (as in the case of Jesus).  I understand that to you it somehow makes sense, but I think it is more the result of your faith, and not actual comprehension of the entire concept.  It would have made more sense to me as a non-Christian if the terms "father", "son" and "holy spirit" were not used, as they seem to denote a hierarchy of authority (God the Father sent God the son, which is actually Himself???").  I hope you can at least understand why non-Christians, especially Muslims and Jews, and even some Christians struggle with the idea.      





Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 24 June 2010 at 2:02pm
 
 Larry
 
 In answer to my statements you give me back statements by a Christian who converted to Islam as if I would accept the word of someone just because they were once a Christian.
   I never said anything about Jesus being buried in the ground after he was crucified. He was placed in the new, unused tomb of the rich merchant Joseph of Arimathea and it is from this tomb that He was resurrected three days later.
   "Knowing" the point of view of Jews on Isaiah 53 does not mean that those views are correct, especially when they do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, so why should I credit their viewpoints as anything other than an extension of this core belief?
   You also say that the New Testament is just "older but not real word of Christ." That is your belief based on your faith and it's ideas about the New Testament. Just because you say that it is not the real word of Christ doesn't mean that you're right.
   You say that the Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of the Prophet Muhammad. The Prophet did not like the pagan idols of the Arabians and was drawn to the ideas of monotheism practiced by Christians and Jews that he became acquainted with when meeting with some of these people while they visited Mecca and the Kaaba while travelling or on trading missions. To argue that Muhammad had absolutely no contact or influence by Christians or Jewish sources is absurd.
 
 
 You continue to equate God with a regular human being, and having the limitations of being a human. You say "How is it possible for the Father to be the Only True God while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the Only True God."
   No it isn't, with God all things are possible. And you continue to use human standards to judge the reality of the Holy Trinity. I'm sorry that you can't understand the nature of the Holy Trinity.
 
 
 Response
 
 Let us concentrate the topic which we are discussing at that time.Ok if Isaiah 21 verse 7 is not talking about Prophet Muhammad then my question is:
 
 Where in the Bible do we see the riding of the camel Prophecy being fulfilled? Who in the Bible was the Prophet that rode the camel to fulfill the Prophecy of Isaiah 21:7?
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 24 June 2010 at 2:18pm
Assalamu alaikum.

With all respect Muhammad Rasulullah did not come to treat the People of the Book the manner and way his followers are doing today. Let us concentrate on what I found written in the Babylonian Talmud:

The religion of the Jews taught at the time of Christ was a distortion of the simple truths explained in the Law of Moses and the Prophets. It was the teachings of the RABBI''s. These learned men elaborated, expounded upon and ADDED to the commands of God, to such an extent the Mosiac Law which should have been a blessing became a crushing burden to the common people. See also Matt 15 : 3 - 9,   Matt 7 : 1 - 13 .


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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 24 June 2010 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   I find your statements regarding Christianity as ill-informed and in great disrespect. You write that Christians "have nothing to sell more than the idea of a blood sacrifice of Christ."
   Well, in spite of your wife and your friends's ignorance about the Passion of Christ, He died in order to make salvation readily available to people who do not by themselves merit God's salvation. The other part they seem to misunderstand is that Jesus Christ was resurrected bodily three days after his death, unlike other "prophets" who are long dead and turned to dust.
   You even throw in the sexual abuse of children by some Catholic priests, like that represents Christianity? It represents Christianity just the same as suicide bombing terrorists and mass murderers of innocent people (like the 9/11 "martyrs", represent Islam).
   Much of the Qur'an is lifted directly from the Old Testament of Judaism and the New Testament of Jesus Christ. To say otherwise is ridiculous, especially that "no Arabic translation of the Bible was available to Muhammad". Or maybe he was drawn to the monotheism that he encountered among the Jewish and Christian travelers and business people who visited Mecca and the Kaaba while his family, held rights to certain functions at the Kaaba such as providing drinking water. Muhammad disliked the pagan Arabian gods such as Hubal and the moon god, Sin, among many others. As a matter of fact, Islam's calendar is based on the moon and not the sun, a relic of pre-Islamic moon-worshipping times.
   I guess that's all the Muslims have to "sell" also? Such as the fable that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba, when in reality it was constructed by the Nabateans.
   You state that "if we follow just what we hear people repeating around us does not mean that we are not to investigate and use our own mind before falling for it blindly..." I guess that's a pretty good representation of the views of many of the Muslims on this forum who parrot the same old misinformation concerning Christ and Christianity, as if they alone know the "truth" while "Christians" hang onto their "blood sacrifices", etc.
   Your distaste for and mocking of Christianity says a lot about you and your faith. Some Christians aren't alone in their hypocrises, they are well represented by some the followers of Islam as well. So much for the "Peoples of the Book" B.S. The misogynist views of women in the Qur'an are also bizarre. I don't think you will find the advice to "beat them" (women) if they don't do as they are expected, in the Bible. Instead Psalms declares that a good wife is more precious than rubies.
   So, we can go back and forth, treating each other as morons and infidels for not following the "correct" path. I guess that all depends on which path one finds oneself.
   As for me, the Messiah has already come and told us what we need to do to achieve salvation, simply by having faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Son of God, who will sit in judgment at the end of the world. I put my faith in a risen Lord and not in the recitals of a long dead and buried "prophet."
   Now you can see what it feels like to be mocked in your faith.



Larry,
your response was the most ridiculous of any I've ever heard.

First let me tell you, to those who you are calling ignorant are not only smarter than you, but also more informed about their previous belief of Christianity and their new belief Islam then you the average Joe is, actually they are more knowledgeable than some of those who lead services at your churches.
You have nothing impressive to offer but to repeat, what others have put in your head and you repeat even without understanding or seeing that you make no sense at all.
It is not me who says that 'blood sacrifice of Christ' is the most important thing in Christianity, rather its people like you who tell me this all the time. Saying that without it there is nothing left?
I say, its was not the death of Christ, rather his life that was more important and with a purpose.

Another point that I made that passed over your head was that what you said.  You said that Jesus' death paid for the sins (of people like you who believe in him). Don't those priests believe in him, the one's who have been sexually abusing and preying on innocent kids ever since. And you aretelling me that its these kind of people who's sins are paid for by the blood of Christ, according to what you believe? That's just a question to you. And I did not ask you to reference that to Muslims, I am asking yours as a Christian's response to that question, leave others for other threads.

A Muslim will never argue that the Quran and the older scriptures are from God, One and only God, and in their pure state have a common message and same essence.
It is the human influence that altered the true message God sent through the OT/Nt thus making it necessary that a pure word of God be revealed, which did happen in the form of the Quran as a Mercy from God.
Your claim, that the Quran is directly lifted from OT and NT is absurd and very common illusion among those of you who have only read it in parts when someone else has pointed out verses to you, had you read it all, you would avoid saying that. Let me challenge you with a couple of verses to prove you are mislead and mistaken.

Search For: 112 - -

  • 112:1 (Y. Ali) Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;


  • 112:2 (Y. Ali) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;


  • 112:3 (Y. Ali) He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;


  • 112:4 (Y. Ali) And there is none like unto Him.

  • Can you prove what you said by pointing out from where in OT/NT these verses came from?

    Here is another challenge for you:
  • 4:171 (Asad) O FOLLOWERS of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds [of truth] in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - [the fulfilment of] His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, "[God is] a trinity". Desist [from this assertion] for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God. 
  • Now let me quote some verses from the NT/OT and ask you to find their 'pull outs" as you say in the Quran.

  • 1-A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    2-If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    3-1 corinthians 11:6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

    4-Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    5-1 John 2
    1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

    6-1 Samuel 18:10
     The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did.

    These are some of the verses I could think of, if the Quran is lifted from OT/NT as you claim, then prove your claim and find those verses that are based on them, if you speak the truth?

    Hasan



    Edited by honeto - 24 June 2010 at 9:49pm
    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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