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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 22 October 2010 at 10:57am

 To Shibb.

 Here is an interesting Chronological contradiction in your Bible.

 Mark 11:12-16:
"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it. On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts."

 So according to Mark's Gospel
Jesus cursed the fig tree then entered the temple area.

 Now let us see what Matthew's Gospel says about this event.

 
Matthew 21:12-19:
"Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. "It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'" The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them. But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, "Hosanna to the Son of David," they were indignant. "Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, " 'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise?" And he left them and went out of the city to Bethany, where he spent the night. Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered."

 
So according to Matthew Jesus entered the temple area then cursed the fig tree.

 Even Biblical scholar
Eduard Schweizer openly admit this contradiction and writes:

 
"There is no way to resolve the contradiction."

 So what is a logical response by Mr.Shibb who repeatedly confess that Bible is a God's word.

 
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Sliman
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Quote Sliman Replybullet Posted: 22 October 2010 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 Quran never contradict itself and you are failed to show me any contardiction in the Quran.



Then you probably have not read the Quran, brother.

Unfortunately, I will have to disappoint you, and shower you with not one, but many such contradictions within the Quran.

Here is just one of the many...

What can you say about it, Mansour?

1. Heavens or Earth? Which was created first?

First earth and then heaven [2:29]
OR
First heaven and then earth [79:27].
------------------------------------------------------------
002.029
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.
SHAKIR: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

/\
CONTRADICTION
\/

079.027
YUSUFALI: What! Are ye the more difficult to create or the heaven (above)? (Allah) hath constructed it:
PICKTHAL: Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
SHAKIR: Are you the harder to create or the heaven? He made it.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Did Allah lie?  Did Jibril lie?  Or did Muhammad lie?  None of them can lie, according to the Holy Quran, which gives rise to a SECOND contradiction - that of either Muhammad, Jibril, or Allah lying.


Edited by Sliman - 22 October 2010 at 4:52pm
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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 24 October 2010 at 4:39am
Assalamu alaika Sliman.

Congratulations for joining this forum. I hope you joined it to understand Allah and what Muhammad as His final Messenger came to do.
Muhammad's teaching is not to be taken like an end product- you just purchase it without knowing the process. Unfortunately, this is what is presented by the Muslim Umma. Muhammad spent thirteen years explaining the process of revelation and the Nature of Allah, His Attributes etc. I am not saying that you must take thirteen years also. But you should go through that process to fit into chapter 6:105:Thus We explain variously the Verses so that they (the disbelievers) may say: "You (Muhammad) have studied (the Book of the People of the Scriptures and brought this Qur'an from that)" and that We may make the matter clear for the people who may have the knowledge.
Therefore what is represented by the participants in this dialogue is not what Muhammad came to do.
This is the actual work of Muhammad. In chapter 5:15, Allah addresses those with the previous Scripture: O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad) explaining to you  much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed there come to you from Allah a light (Muhammad) and a plain Book. Secondly in the same chapter:19, Allah says, "O people of the scripture! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhamamd) making (things) clear unto you, after a break in (the series of) Messengers, lest you say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner." But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And Allah is able to do all things. From this verse to verse 32 is what Allah revealed to Muhammad to the Jews reminding them of their ancestors. it is left to the Jews to accept or reject it.
The greatest lie ever told by Allah for those who want to belive in that is what Allah revealed to Muhammad in chapter 7:157, "Those (i.e. the Jews in Syria, Rome, Iran, Madina and the Christians in Najran) who follow the Messenger, the prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad and not one other than him) whom they find written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel, he commands them (i.e. referring to the Jews in Madina after the Hijra and not before the Hijra) for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. what is in the ten Commandments)..."
You will never understand 2;29 because you do not know how to translate and understand the Qur'an. in short Allah here is explaining His Rububiyya. In 79:27, Allah is addressing those who denied Him as creator with what they do not know about the creation of the lower heavens i.e. including the earth and human beings. We know about embryology today.
Contradiction is from the original text and not from the translation that invariably in the end carries the same meaning.
I have interest in you because you are in America where since you were colonized by the Protestants you knew nothing about Muhammad. It is difficult withing a glimpse of a second to remove that imbibed in you hating Muhammad and not MONARCHS. If you can understand Muhammad then you will help in removing TERRORISM. Terrorism is a result of the failure of the world POWERS and the POPE and other RELIGIOUS leaders to understand that Muhammad came to make the Torah his Shari'a. Muhammad lived in the midst of the LEVI tribes and not other tribes of the Children of Israel.
Friendship.
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Quote Sliman Replybullet Posted: 24 October 2010 at 1:06pm
Waalaika assalam Friendship,

I like your name:)

I live in US but I was not colonized by Protestants.  I came to colonize them 16 years ago LOL

I grew up a Muslim in Lebanon before my family immigrated to US when I was a teen.

I still consider myself Muslim, because my family, my culture and traditions are Muslim.

However, I have had many questions about religion in general, and Islam in particular, while growing up.  It has nothing to do with Christian missionaries, or Protestants, or Jews, or monkeys, or anyone else.  It simply has to do with reason and logic. I go on the internet and see many Islamic websites designed to revert non-Muslims to Islam and strengthen the faith of Muslims through education and explanations.  That is all good in itself.  But unfortunately, my skepticism also fires up when I have also come up against many such sites that make claims about Islam and raise it up to standards that it cannot uphold. 

One such belief is that the Quran has no contradictions, that Quran is perfect in that respect, that Quran is scientifically "correct", etc. 

This kind of attitude, opens up Islam as a religion, and the Holy Quran in particular, to reasonable criticism.  After all, when Muslims challenge non-Muslims with such grandiose statements --- like that the Quran is perfect, is has no contradictions, that it is scientifically perfect, etc --- this incites people to study the Quran and note that it is not what many Muslims like to claim it as.

I have provided one such contradiction, and you have responded.  I have expected a response like that.  After all, I have FAITH in the Quran and FAITH in God, and I understand it when you say that the Quran was sent by God as a message of good-will, and a message of peace and social equality. 

The problem is when some people decide to go further than that, and claim standards for the Quran that the book itself fails when actually held up to such standards.

For example, that Quran miracles guy, says that it is scientifically proven that God put mountains on earth to prevent earthquakes, as the Quran claims.  Really?  Well, I hope that people who know real science never read him, because that will surely reject Quran because of this claim.  Mountains are actually there as a RESULT of earthquakes/tectonic plate shifts; they have nothing to do with PREVENTING them.

It's things like these, when Muslims with little knowledge (unfortunately, 70+ percent of Muslims posting on the internet) make claims like these that actually do a DISfavor to Islam.

Masalama
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 25 October 2010 at 2:18pm
Assalamu alaikum.

Brother Sliman posted: But unfortunately, my skepticism also fires up when I have also come up against many such sites that make claims about Islam and raise it up to standards that it cannot uphold.
Response: you are lucky if you have maintained your language probably Arabic. I have to learn Arabic, but could not continue as I had to learn English. Arabic language unfortunately has no place among the Muslim Umma. Any one with strong faith will see many funny things done and said by the Muslims. It was only in 1990 that I decided to start reading Islamic books as a protest because what they say is in total contradiction of the life of the Noble Muhammad. What Islam must uphold are the practices of Muhammad called his SUNANAN. Unfortunately even in the holy mosques you see people praying the way they liked. The very moment an American accepts Islam his ambition is to go for the Pilgrimage to insult Muhammad Rasulullah. Nobody to correct them. Look at the expansion of the mosques, congregating illiterate and impoverished folks. EDUCATION IS FOREMOST IN ISLAM FOR NO ONE IS SUPPOSED TO PERFORM AN ACT UNLESS HE IS FULLY AWARE, CONVERSANT WITH THE RULES, GUIDELINES AND ETIQUETTE OF THAT IBADAT. As for the Sciences of the Qur'an nobody is interested in assimilating those sciences in our education curriculum. I do not think there is ever a faculty of pharmaceutical sciences that investigated the date tree or its fruit to find the substance that reduced the labour pains of Maryam the mother Jesus. Look the absurdity in not discouraging the People of the Book to read the holy Qur'an! Yes, indeed for our mundane affairs we have raised Islam to standards that it cannot uphold. Where is the Khalifate with the Khalifa leading the five daily prayers?
2. Your comment: After all, when Muslims challenge non-Muslims with such grandiose statements --- like that the Quran is perfect, is has no contradictions, that it is scientifically perfect, etc --- this incites people to study the Quran and note that it is not what many Muslims like to claim it as.
Response: The Sciences of the holy Qur'an are facing what the Bible faced during the Olympian age of Antiquity. The translation and interpretation of the holy Qur'an is under the Monarchs who get their position without any qualification. They allowed this disastrous trend to gravitate to authorship and translation of the Qur'an. The moment you try to translate an incident according to the Sunna, to fit our scientific achievements you are targeted as an innovator and rejector. You cannot compare the Bible with the Sunna and draw out a legal rule. Muhammad did not come to teach us the Sciences of the holy Qur'an. Abdullah ibn Abbas skipped such controversial issues claiming that the time for their correct interpretation will soon come. But what are we doing today? The contradictions in the Qur'an is man made, because we do not regard it as our complete way of life. The freedom and laxity in it is translated into obstruction and strangulation. Look at our way of life. I am not against riches or enjoyment, but the Bible is clear on what to do with wealth. Now, did Muhammad dispelled this institution in Madina? Never! the first thing he did was to establish brotherhood where no one is left unattended. The Jews of Madina understood this as their Shari'a and endorsed it.
My advice is you go back to reading Islamic books on your own to save yourself from the torment of Hell-Fire.
Friendship. 
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 25 October 2010 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Sliman



Then you probably have not read the Quran, brother.

Unfortunately, I will have to disappoint you, and shower you with not one, but many such contradictions within the Quran.

Here is just one of the many...

What can you say about it, Mansour?

1. Heavens or Earth? Which was created first?

First earth and then heaven [2:29]
OR
First heaven and then earth [79:27].
------------------------------------------------------------
002.029
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.
SHAKIR: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

/\
CONTRADICTION
\/

079.027
YUSUFALI: What! Are ye the more difficult to create or the heaven (above)? (Allah) hath constructed it:
PICKTHAL: Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
SHAKIR: Are you the harder to create or the heaven? He made it.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Did Allah lie?  Did Jibril lie?  Or did Muhammad lie?  None of them can lie, according to the Holy Quran, which gives rise to a SECOND contradiction - that of either Muhammad, Jibril, or Allah lying.


 To Sliman

 Here is response by Maulana Maududi:

 Among the earliest commentators the dispute has been going on for ages as to what was created first according to the Qur'an, the earth or the heavens. One group of them argues on the basis of this verse(verse 11 of Surah 41) and verse 29 of Al-Baqarah that the earth was created first. The other group argues from verses 27-33 of An Nazi'at that the heavens were created first, because there it has been clearly stated that the earth was created after the heavens. But the fact is that nowhere in the Qur'an has the mention of the creation of the universe been made to teach Physics or Astronomy, but while inviting towards belief in the doctrines to Tauhid(doctrine of Oneness of God) and the Hereafter, like countless other Signs, the creation of the heavens and the earth also has been presented as food for thought. For this purpose it was not at All necessary that the chronological order of the creation of the heavens and the earth should have been presented, and it should have been told whether the heavens were created first or the earth. No matter whether this was created first or that, in any case both are an evidence of Allah Almighty's being the One and only Deity, and are a testimony that their Creator has not created this whole universe as a plaything for a care-fret person. That is why the Qur'an sometimes mentions the creation of the earth first and sometimes the creation of the heavens first. Where the object is to make man realize the blessings of God, there generally it has mentioned the earth first, for it is closer to man; and where the object is to give man the concept of God's greatness and His omnipotence there it has generally mentioned the heavens first, for the scene of the revolving heavens has always been awe-inspiring for man.
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:07pm
Sliman,
welcome to the forum, I hope this be a learning experience for you and for all of us. 
In my opinion and experience Quran is a book of guidance. It clearly shows an individual two choices, to live life the way we want, or to live life the way our maker guides us to toward our sucess here and hereafter.
Because after death, we will be brought back in front of our Creator, I firmly believe that, Who will show us the truth of all matters and serve absolute Justice.
So, the most important issues we must pay attention first is Oneness of God in the Quran, there is no contradiction about that in the Quran.
Jesus (pbuh) was God's servant, a prophet, a man. There is no contradcition about that in the Quran.
Salvation comes from God, who is Merciful, Just and Forgiving. God will Judge us all, based on our submission to His will or its rejection, our intentions and actions. There is no contradcition about that in Quran.
 
Now, what you mentioned as contradiction in those two verses, I do not see anything that suggests a timeline of Creation. Mentioning different things at different places in different order does not mean we should assume that they were created in that order. 
It is not talking about when they were created, rather that they are created by God, and there is no argument about that. There is no contradiction in those two verses my friend.
And like I have said, God will ask you most important questions first; Who did you worshiped and served, do you have that answer straighten already?
Peace,
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 25 October 2010 at 3:13pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Sliman



For example, that Quran miracles guy, says that it is scientifically proven that God put mountains on earth to prevent earthquakes, as the Quran claims.  Really?  Well, I hope that people who know real science never read him, because that will surely reject Quran because of this claim.  Mountains are actually there as a RESULT of earthquakes/tectonic plate shifts; they have nothing to do with PREVENTING them.



 To Sliman

 Nowhere does the Quran say that the mountain prevents the earthquake.The Arabic word for 'earthquake'  is 'zilzaal' or 'zalzala'- But the words used in Surah 21:31 as well as Surah 31:10 and Surah 16:15, it is 'Tamida.' 'Tamida' means 'to shake', 'to 'sway', 'to swing.'

 
Qur'an says in Surah 31:10, as well as Surah 16:15 "We have put on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it would shake with you. It is 'tamide bikum' 'Shake with you', Indicating, if the mountains were not there, if you would have walked, if you would have moved, even the earth would have moved with you - If you would have swayed, even the earth would have swayed with you. And we know normally when we walk on the Earth, the Earth does not shake.

 Visit:

  Mountains prevent the earth from shaking while rotating around its own axle.

 
The mountains prevent the earth from shaking while its rotating around its own axis.

 Science confirms that mountains prevent the earth from shaking while it is revolving around itself, and that they are like pegs rooted in it.  The Noble Quran made a similar claim.

 
 Mountains prevent the earth from shaking - The Noble Quran claimed it and Science confirmed it!
 

 
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