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Interfaith Dialogue
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2010 at 1:45pm
   "Allah commands the Christians to judge by the revealed Book, not by the New Testament which is a collection of Books written by a wide variety of authors. In this case, Christians are unable to judge by these Books except through the Holy Qur'an and acceptance of Prophet Muhammad's message."
   Christians DO judge by the revealed Book, the New Testament of Jesus Christ. Which, by the way, is centuries older than the Qur'an and Islam. I do not consider the Holy Qur'an to be the final revealed Word of God and I do not accept Muhammad as being the "Seal of the Prophets." Muhammad used large sections of both the Old and New Testaments when he was forming the religion of Islam, including the Jewish Prophets and Patriarchs and the Christian's central personages including Jesus and His mother Mary among many others. This is easily ascertained by anyone comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.
   It is always fascinating to me that the Muslims, while commandeering the basic structure and personages of the Jewish and Christian faiths, now act like they hold the "real truths" that actually sprang from the Bible and use them against the Jews and Christians as, at best, the People of the Book and, at worst, infidels.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 18 June 2010 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,
   "Christians (most) say that God is One, then continue to say that God is three in one." "Those who are other than God, or under God's command are not God nor equal to God. Holy Ghost and Jesus are not God as shown even in the Bible. Yet Christians say that they are the same as God."
   You say "those other than God, or under God's command" but Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not other than God they are God, not separate deities "under God's command." Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one substance, they are God.
   "Jesus is taken as God by Christians. To the contrary, the Bible and our intellect tells us that he was a man, God's creation, God's servant, certainly not God."
   How does human intellect define what the essence of God is, can humans know the mind and nature of God Himself? If Jesus Christ was just a "man" then why does the Qur'an state that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and told her that she was going to be given the "gift of a Holy Son?" I'm not sure how a "Holy Son" refers to a mere human being.
   The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was for the purpose of making salvation possible by all humans. John 3:16 states that; "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
   You have a habit of taking different Bible chapters and verses out of context and simply putting them together in one group to show that the Bible is totally contradictory. There will never be agreement between Muslims and Christians on the nature and substance of God because Christians see Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Muslims and Jews don't believe that the Messiah has come yet. In fact, Muslim authorities centuries ago sealed up the "Golden Gate" into the city of Jerusalem because according to Jewish belief their Messiah will enter Jerusalem by this particular gate.
   To Christians, the Holy Trinity is simply one substance, it is God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As I have said before, in the Bible Jesus was also given the name Emmanuel which literally means "God with us." The rest is simply a matter of faith for each person. Muslims will still believe that the idea of God having a Son is "monstrous", while Christians will continue to believe that Jesus Christ is God. The best that we can do as people of faith is to honor and respect the beliefs of others, even if we do not agree with them. We, Christians, Jews and Muslims are all descendants of Abraham and we all believe in the same God, though we might have different opinions of what the true nature of God is. It is a matter of faith and personal conviction. Peace to you.
Larry



Larry,
I am not trying to convince you I am only bringing out the facts and truth that I see.
It is true that we will never fathom what God really is, though we know who He is.  We can never fathom what a fly really is, but we know who the fly is. In the similar fashion I can say, we will never fathom what Jesus really was, but we know who he was.
God= Creator
Fly= Created by the Creator
Jesus= Created by the Creator
For a Muslim, its that simple.
The Creator and the Created are not equal. There is no equation or scholarly review that can change this simple fact.

Word Holy is not exclusive for God, prophets are referred to as holy. Your Bible even refers "ground" as holy too:
Acts 7:33
"Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
A mosque is a holy place, and we Muslims still take off  our shoes (that go through dirty places during the course of the day) when entering it.

Muslims do believe Jesus (pbuh) was a prophesied Messiah, Jews did not. And remember Messiah is no way means God.

I don't know why you think that being a prophet, or a Messiah is an ordinary thing? When God chooses out of His Mercy someone to lead mankind into the right guidance, that person is no ordinary person. I think you need to try to comprehend that for a while. These (prophets) are the ones who on the day of Judgment will each be witnesses over those who they were sent to as  guides.  They have certainly higher degree in respect and achievement than even most obedient servants of God, but we must remember, even they cannot and will not become equal to God, nor they ever tried to do so, as they humbled, worshiped and served God. Only Creator is God, alllllllllllllllllllllllll otherssssssssssss are His Creations, simple and clear as that. And God made that clear for all of us through The Final Testament, the Quran, for those who seek the truth. The Quran will be the standard upon which we (those who lived after its revelation till the end of the world) will be judged.

Bring some evidence of what you blame me for when you say I am using out of context quotes? And I will explain them to you my friend.
May God guide those who seek His guidance and His good pleasure.
Hasan




Edited by honeto - 18 June 2010 at 9:38pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2010 at 12:16am
Hasan,
   The difference between us is that you do not understand the Holy Trinity. I can understand why someone of a different faith would have trouble with it but as Christians we believe it is true. Jusus Christ was born of Mary but not fathered by Joseph. In fact, Joseph wanted to divorce Mary when he found that she was with child but an angel came to him and told him who Jesus really was. There was a purpose behind Jesus and His life and ministry. We Christians believe what the New Testament tells us, that Jesus Christ came to be the ultimate sacrifice that would do away with the old and the temple system as the temple would be pointless after Jesus Chrsit died to make salvation possible for everyone human because we do not deserve or merit salvation through our own human efforts. The apostle Paul wrote that if Christ had not died and been resurrected then our faith was in vain. To us Jesus is not just a prophet but the literal Son of God, and with God the Father and the Holy Spirit make up the Holy Trinity, that is of one substance because there is only one God. Other than that there really isn't anything I can say that will change anyone's mind as to their faith because that's what religion is, a matter of pure faith. I deeply respect Islam and am not trying to convert anyone, just say what my faith is. I also deeply respect Judaism for the reason that as a Christian I am also a Jew, as was Jesus Christ and his mother and father. It is just that Christians believe the Jewish Messiah has already come and the Jews do not. But God made a Holy Covenant between Himself and the Jews and I have no reason to believe that He has forgotten that Covenant. And I believe that Christians are also included in that Covenant after the birth, life and death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. That is my faith and it sustains me in my daily life. I hope that all is well with you and yours and wish you Peace and the Love of God, whose children we all are.
Larry
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 20 June 2010 at 10:01am


 Larry

 It seems strange to me that Muhammad would actually be the one person who was "riding the camel" in the prophecy. You say that Muhammad rode a camel "several times" in his life, making the identity of the camel rider even more obscure. Why, out of the tens of thousands of people who rode camels in those times should the identity of the camel rider be that of a man who only rode a camel "several times". I don't know whether the prophecy of who was riding the camel was fulfilled, but you simply state that it was Muhammad. It is up to you to show that with a convincing argument that it was no one but Muhammad. I certainly see nothing to convince me that Muhammad was the person spoken of by Isaiah 1,300 years ago but there is specific details to believe that it was in fact Jesus Christ who rode the donkey, as he did when he entered Jerusalem with his followers.
   Your challenge is backwards, it is not me who needs to show whether the "camel rider" prophecy came true or not. It is you who needs to convince anyone that Muhammad, and no other person, was the rider of the camel. As I have said before, camel riding is a very common, daily activity in the Midlle East during all the time periods in question. How does that narrow the list of possible camel riders to one person, Muhammad?
   It would be strange to me that Isaiah would prophesy that two people at one time, the riders of the donkey and camel, were persons who lived 700 years apart.


 Response

 If Prophecy is not applied to Muhammad then who fulfilled the remaining of Isaiah 21:7 prophecy?

 That is why Isaiah mentioned further in the same chapter, in 21:13: "The burden upon Arabia." Which means the responsibility of the Arab Muslims, and of course now of all the Muslims, to spread the message of Islam.

Isaiah 21:14: "The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled." Tema is probably Madinah where the prophet Muhammad and his companions fled. Each immigrant was brothered by one inhabitant of Madinah and was given food and shelter.

Isaiah 21:15: "For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of the war." This was when the prophet Muhammad and his companions were persecuted and left Mecca to Madinah.

Isaiah 21:16: "For thus hath the Lord said unto me, within a year according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail." Exactly in the second year of immigration, the pagans were defeated in the first battle in Islam.

Finally Isaiah 21:17 concludes with: "...the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished, for the Lord God of Israel hath spoken it." Kedar is the second son of Ismael, (Genesis 25:13), from whom ultimately Muhammad came. In the beginning, the children of Kedar were attacking Islam and Muhammad. But as many of them accepted Islam, the number of the children of Kedar who resisted Islam was diminished. In some verses in the Bible, Kedar is synonymous with Arab in general, as in Ezekiel 27:21: "Arabia, and all the Princes of Kedar..."

 Larry

  I read your link to the Jewish article that claims that Isaiah 53 refers to the nation of Israel and not the Messiah. Well, what do you expect? How many Jews are going to believe that it refers to Jesus Christ as the Messiah? The rest of your reply is simply absurd. Chapter 53 of Isaiah is clearly speaking of a PERSON not a NATION. But this just goes to show how people twist and turn a prophecy to suit there own ends with absolutely no proof of what they are saying. Please cite the verses in Ezekiel and Jeremiah, Hoseas and Nahum that support your contention, since you used them as a backup to what you are claiming.

 

 Response

 Here you can read the entire article on this subject whether it is a nation of Israel or Jesus Christ?This article is written by ex-christian(converted to Islam).


 Larry

 Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled in it's entirety by Jesus Christ, every line accurately describes what He endured for the sake of all. Even the line "And they made His grave with the wicked, But with the rich at His death" describes His being crucified between two criminals but He was buried in the new tomb of a rich man, Joseph of Arimathea.


 Response

 There are also two errors in the fulfillment of this Prophecy:

  1. Jesus was never buried (Matthew 27:59-66, Matthew 28)!  He was temporarily placed in a tomb and then his body disappeared after that.  But he never ONCE was buried under ground as our dead get buried.
     
  2. Jesus, who was never buried from the first place, was also NEVER BURIED with the wicked and the rich.  His tomb was placed in an isolated area as recorded in the gospels.

Again, verse 9 says that he was to be buried with both the wicked and the rich.  Jesus was buried alone.


 Larry

 I also think that it is odd that you are using the source "Jews for Judaism" to make your contentions that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was not the person referred to by Isaiah's prophecy. The person referred to in Isaiah Chapter 53 can be NO other person but Jesus Christ.


 Response

 Why it is odd?After all Jews also read Book of Isaiah.They believe it is word of God.So it is important to know their point of view.


 Larry

  Christians DO judge by the revealed Book, the New Testament of Jesus Christ. Which, by the way, is centuries older than the Qur'an and Islam.

 Response

 It is just older but not real word of Christ.


 Larry

 I do not consider the Holy Qur'an to be the final revealed Word of God and I do not accept Muhammad as being the "Seal of the Prophets." Muhammad used large sections of both the Old and New Testaments when he was forming the religion of Islam, including the Jewish Prophets and Patriarchs and the Christian's central personages including Jesus and His mother Mary among many others. This is easily ascertained by anyone comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.


 Response


 The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. The oldest Arabic version of the new Testament was published by Erpenius in 1616 C.E. - about a thousand years after the demise of our Prophet.So your claim makes me laugh.

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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 20 June 2010 at 2:25pm

 Larry
 
 The difference between us is that you do not understand the Holy Trinity. I can understand why someone of a different faith would have trouble with it but as Christians we believe it is true.


 Response

 

John 17:3

 

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


Notice how the Father is being referred to as THE ONLY TRUE GOD.


How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God, while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the ONLY true God. Similarly, if we say that the Father is the ONLY true God(how clearer can it get for someone to express Unitarianism?) then we can't say that anyone else (i.e. Son and Holy Spirit) is God as well.


Thus, in light of John 17:3 we see that the concept of Trinity is logically incoherent.

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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 20 June 2010 at 2:50pm
   In answer to my statements you give me back statements by a Christian who converted to Islam as if I would accept the word of someone just because they were once a Christian.
   I never said anything about Jesus being buried in the ground after he was crucified. He was placed in the new, unused tomb of the rich merchant Joseph of Arimathea and it is from this tomb that He was resurrected three days later.
   "Knowing" the point of view of Jews on Isaiah 53 does not mean that those views are correct, especially when they do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, so why should I credit their viewpoints as anything other than an extension of this core belief?
   You also say that the New Testament is just "older but not real word of Christ." That is your belief based on your faith and it's ideas about the New Testament. Just because you say that it is not the real word of Christ doesn't mean that you're right.
   You say that the Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of the Prophet Muhammad. The Prophet did not like the pagan idols of the Arabians and was drawn to the ideas of monotheism practiced by Christians and Jews that he became acquainted with when meeting with some of these people while they visited Mecca and the Kaaba while travelling or on trading missions. To argue that Muhammad had absolutely no contact or influence by Christians or Jewish sources is absurd.
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Quote I♥Jesus Replybullet Posted: 20 June 2010 at 3:52pm
Existing outside of time is logically incoherent.  Creating reality is logically incoherent.  Muhammad's hegira is logically incoherent, as is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Go back to Kant and Hegel,  Mansoor.  God is noumena, an unknowable reality.  Logical incoherence is a given.

What we call Father, Son & Holy Spirit are phenomena.  They are what we perceive of the noumena, but are incomplete concepts.  We form a thesis about what God is, and as we perceive God afresh we synthesize that antithesis into our thesis but we never reach logical coherence.

What was the title of al-Ghazzali's great work again?  The Coherence of the Philosophers? 
I don't think so  .  .  . 
If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 20 June 2010 at 9:49pm
   You continue to equate God with a regular human being, and having the limitations of being a human. You say "How is it possible for the Father to be the Only True God while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the Only True God."
   No it isn't, with God all things are possible. And you continue to use human standards to judge the reality of the Holy Trinity. I'm sorry that you can't understand the nature of the Holy Trinity.






   
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