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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2010 at 4:21pm
   You say that "death is not mentioned" in Isaiah. But Isaiah Chapter 53 clearly states that:

   1. Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
   
   2. For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.

   3. He is despised and rejected by men. A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him. He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
   
   4. Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
   
   5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
   
   6. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
   
   7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before it's shearers is silent. So He opened not His mouth.
   
   8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
   
   9. And they made His grave with the wicked, But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
   
   10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
   
   11. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By his knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
   
   12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death. And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

Edited by Larry - 15 June 2010 at 4:26pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2010 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Larry

   You are talking about "God, Jesus and Salvation" as being contradictory in the Bible. There is only one God, the Father.
   When Jesus was 12 years old He and His parents went to Jerusalem for the Passover. On the way home Mary and Joseph could not find Jesus among the group and went back to Jerusalem to find Him. "After three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers." When His mother, Mary, asked Him "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously. And He said to them 'Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business'?" Jesus prayed to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, shortly before his capture and execution, saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours be done."
   The whole point of Jesus's terrible death was to be the sacrifice that would give sinners, who could not earn Salvation on their own, attain salvation through belief in Him as the Son of God. His resurrection after being dead for three days is the miracle that binds all Christians together, for without His sacrifice Christianity would not exist.
   When John the Baptist baptized Jesus in the river Jordan, "...Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, In whom I am well pleased."
   This is the Trinity that Christians worship, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are one and the same substance, not three separate "gods". When Jesus was born one of the names that He was given was Emmanuel, meaning literally, "God with us." And, His birth, life and death had been Prophesied 700 years before his birth, by the Prophet Isaiah in the 53rd Chapter of Isaiah in the Old Testament. Isaiah speaks of his painful death but adds that "by His stripes (literally, blows that cut in) we are healed." Every single prophecy of Isaiah concerning the life and death of Jesus Christ was fulfilled by Jesus, even the manner of his death "with the wicked" and "with the rich" at His burial in the tomb of a rich man (Joseph of Arimathea).
   The Trinity is hard for many non-Christians to understand, but it in no way represents three separate 'gods'. But everyone has their own religious beliefs and if it fulfills their faith then it is right for them. But I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and will judge the world at the end of days as written of in the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ', the last book of the New Testament.
   Peace!
   
   


Larry,
these three issues are the key, rest are just time wasting and excuses for looking away from the truth. Christians (most) say that God is One, then continue to say, that God is three in One. God the father, God the holy ghost, God the son (Jesus).
For me that is a contradiction. Those who are other than God, or under God's command are not God, nor equal to God. Holy Ghost and Jesus are not equal to God as shown even in the Bible. Yet Christians say they are same as God.
Jesus is taken as God by Christians. To the contrary, the Bible and our intellect tells us that he was a man, God's creation, God's servant, certainly not God.
Salvation, I am told by Christians that Jesus has paid for their sins with his blood sacrifice. To the contrary, I see that in the Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that every sin that man commits he will give its accounts on the Judgment day. He also is quoted to have said that if your hand commits a sin, cut it off from your body so because of it your whole body will not be thrown into the fire. Also in the same Bible I read that each one will pay for their won sin, father will not pay for his son, nor son will pay for his father's sin. Yet there are some contradictory statements in the Bible as well like, " that the sacrifice of Jesus is for our sins, not just ours (those who follow him) but for the whole world" Another one is where it say that God will punish several generation for some sins!
So the contradiction on these main three issues is more powerful and important than on anything else.
Hasan



Edited by honeto - 15 June 2010 at 9:01pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2010 at 1:15am
Hasan,
   "Christians (most) say that God is One, then continue to say that God is three in one." "Those who are other than God, or under God's command are not God nor equal to God. Holy Ghost and Jesus are not God as shown even in the Bible. Yet Christians say that they are the same as God."
   You say "those other than God, or under God's command" but Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not other than God they are God, not separate deities "under God's command." Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one substance, they are God.
   "Jesus is taken as God by Christians. To the contrary, the Bible and our intellect tells us that he was a man, God's creation, God's servant, certainly not God."
   How does human intellect define what the essence of God is, can humans know the mind and nature of God Himself? If Jesus Christ was just a "man" then why does the Qur'an state that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and told her that she was going to be given the "gift of a Holy Son?" I'm not sure how a "Holy Son" refers to a mere human being.
   The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was for the purpose of making salvation possible by all humans. John 3:16 states that; "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
   You have a habit of taking different Bible chapters and verses out of context and simply putting them together in one group to show that the Bible is totally contradictory. There will never be agreement between Muslims and Christians on the nature and substance of God because Christians see Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Muslims and Jews don't believe that the Messiah has come yet. In fact, Muslim authorities centuries ago sealed up the "Golden Gate" into the city of Jerusalem because according to Jewish belief their Messiah will enter Jerusalem by this particular gate.
   To Christians, the Holy Trinity is simply one substance, it is God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As I have said before, in the Bible Jesus was also given the name Emmanuel which literally means "God with us." The rest is simply a matter of faith for each person. Muslims will still believe that the idea of God having a Son is "monstrous", while Christians will continue to believe that Jesus Christ is God. The best that we can do as people of faith is to honor and respect the beliefs of others, even if we do not agree with them. We, Christians, Jews and Muslims are all descendants of Abraham and we all believe in the same God, though we might have different opinions of what the true nature of God is. It is a matter of faith and personal conviction. Peace to you.
Larry

Edited by Larry - 16 June 2010 at 1:17am
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2010 at 6:31am


 Larry

 Your responses were absurd from the start.
   "Just as Jesus was riding an ass as a prophet and messenger of God so was Muhammad riding on a camel as a prophet and messenger of God." And then you state that "In fact the paralell between the two is unmistakable. While Jesus a.s. as a messenger rode into a city (Jerusalem), Muhammad s.a.w. rode into a city (Yathrib or Medinah as it was later renamed."
   Is this what passes as the "proof" that Muhammad was the "rider on a camel"? Why not say that Jesus ate food and Muhammad ate food too. Or Jesus walked on his two feet and Muhammad also walked on his two feet.
   Trying to find paralell examples between Jesus and Muhammad, by using similar acts between the two, is patently ridiculous. Is this the kind of "proof" that Muslims use to portray Muhammad as the greatest of all the prophets?

 
 Response


 Prophet Isaiah peace be upon him prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel: "And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)" Who are the "couple of horsemen"? They are Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them. Let us see the proof Jesus fulfilled the riding of the donkey prophecy: "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, (John 12:14)" The quote "as it is written" is referring to Isaiah 21:7. It is important to know that no where in the New Testament do we see Jesus riding any camel. No where in the New Testament do we see any fulfillment of any kind about the prophecy of riding the camel. When we look at Muhammad peace be upon him, he rode the camel several times in his life time. The most popular event of him riding the camel is when he migrated from Mecca to Medina to escape the torture of the pagans. Not only that, but when the Muslims in Medina wanted to build the first Islamic Mosque and the Prophet's humble Home next to it, they had conflicts among each others about the location, because each group/tribe wanted the location to be as near to them as possible. So, to avoid the conflict of "favoritism", the Prophet peace be upon him ordered for his camel to decide the location by letting it walk and settle in the place that it naturally chooses. This wisdom from Prophet Muhammad which relied solely on his camel solved the problem. Now, my open challenge to you is as follows: Where in the Bible do we see the riding of the camel Prophecy being fulfilled? Who in the Bible was the Prophet that rode the camel to fulfill the Prophecy of Isaiah 21:7? The New Testament only fulfills the riding of the donkey prophecy in John 12:14, and it claims that it only fulfilled that prophecy. There is still a missing fulfillment of the riding of the camel in the New Testament. Why? If Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him wasn't the one who fulfilled the remaining of Isaiah 21:7 prophecy, then who was that Prophet?



 Larry

 You say that "death is not mentioned" in Isaiah. But Isaiah Chapter 53 clearly states that:

   1. Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
   
   2. For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.

   3. He is despised and rejected by men. A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him. He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
   
   4. Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
   
   5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
   
   6. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
   
   7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before it's shearers is silent. So He opened not His mouth.
   
   8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
   
   9. And they made His grave with the wicked, But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
   
   10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
   
   11. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By his knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
   
   12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death. And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.


 Response


  You ignore the historical background of Isaiah 53 to claim that Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, yet Ezekiel and Jeremiah link Isaiah 53 to Israel, the Prophetic books of Hosea and Nahum also link Isaiah 53 to Israel using descriptive parallels. God promises to return the Israelites to Jerusalem and restore the Temple after the Babylon Captivity (536 B.C.E). Hence, the context of Isaiah 53 refers to the suffering and restoration of Israel, absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

 Here is response by Jewish sources to Isaiah 53:

 Is it true that Jews interpreted Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah before Rashi?
 
 ISAIAH 53

 Does "humbled himself and opened not his mouth" describe Jesus?

 Was Jesus "stricken by his enemies"?

 
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2010 at 7:01am

 Shibboleth

If, at the time the Qur'an were written, and the Holy Word had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein?


 Response

 

Surah 5:47


Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.


Imam Al Qurtubi has it in his commentary...

 

, , : ;

 

The people of the Gospel ruled by the Gospel at that particular time (meaning the time it was revealed to Jesus), as for now it is abrogated and it is said that this is an order for the Christians of this time to have faith in Muhammad (peace be upon him) because according to the Gospel it is compulsory for them to do so. (Abu 'Abdullah al-Qurtubi, Tasfir al Jami' li-ahkam al-Qur'an, Commentary on Surah 5:43, Source)

 

Focus on what the second part of the verse says...

 

Surah 5:47


Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

 

Regarding the second part of the verse, Imam Al Qurtubi says...

 

, ; , . :

 

And whoever does not rule by what Allah has revealed from the Qur'an, and abandons the saying of the Messenger (peace be upon him) then he is a disbeliever. Ibn Abbas and Mujahid said that this verse is general and applies to everyone. Ibn Mas'ud and Al Hassan said: "It is general to all those who don't rule by what Allah has revealed from amongst the Muslims, Jews and disbelievers." (Ibid.)


This verse refers to the Gospel, which is not distorted and altered. Allah is referring in these verses to the commands He stated in the original Gospel so that all the verses are about the unchanged or unaltered commands of Allah in the Gospel.

Allah commands the Christians to judge by the revealed Book, not by the New Testament which is a collection of books written by a wide variety of authors. In this case, Christians are unable to judge by these Books except through the Holy Qur'an and acceptance of Prophet Muhammad's message. This is the only possible way to judge by the Gospel because the Qur'an was sent down affirming its original message and is a protector over it. This is emphasized in verse 48...

 

Surah 5:48

And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;


 

Ibn Kathir quotes well known Qur'anic commentator Ibn Jarir Al Tabari as saying...

 

Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Source, You can also see Al Tabari saying this himself in his commentary on Surah 2:41)


Imam al-Tabari relates from the eminent Jurist Ibn Juraij (80-150 AH/699-767 CE) that if the people of the book quote something from their Bible that disagrees with the Qur'an then we reject it but if it agrees with the Qur'an then we accept it. (Source) Imam al-Bahgawi also quotes the opinion of Ibn Juraij in his commentary. (Tafsir Al Baghawi, 1/65)

The Qur'an is the protector of the Gospel and Torah. But which Gospel and Torah? It is the original revelations sent to Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) both and whatever of it survives today (e.g. prophecies of Muhammad peace be upon him to come) in the scriptures of the Christians and Jews today.

So, what is meant here by the Gospel is the original revealed Book before it got corrupted and altered. And there is no way to judge by it except by conferring the Qur'an which is a protector over it; for it bears witness to what Allah has revealed in it and exposes what people falsely entered into and removed from it.

Other commentators have stated that if the Christians judge by the Gospel then they are in a way accepting the Prophecies of Muhammad peace be upon him in the Gospel, which in turn leads them to accepting Islam.

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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2010 at 12:58pm
   It seems strange to me that Muhammad would actually be the one person who was "riding the camel" in the prophecy. You say that Muhammad rode a camel "several times" in his life, making the identity of the camel rider even more obscure. Why, out of the tens of thousands of people who rode camels in those times should the identity of the camel rider be that of a man who only rode a camel "several times". I don't know whether the prophecy of who was riding the camel was fulfilled, but you simply state that it was Muhammad. It is up to you to show that with a convincing argument that it was no one but Muhammad. I certainly see nothing to convince me that Muhammad was the person spoken of by Isaiah 1,300 years ago but there is specific details to believe that it was in fact Jesus Christ who rode the donkey, as he did when he entered Jerusalem with his followers.
   Your challenge is backwards, it is not me who needs to show whether the "camel rider" prophecy came true or not. It is you who needs to convince anyone that Muhammad, and no other person, was the rider of the camel. As I have said before, camel riding is a very common, daily activity in the Midlle East during all the time periods in question. How does that narrow the list of possible camel riders to one person, Muhammad?
   It would be strange to me that Isaiah would prophesy that two people at one time, the riders of the donkey and camel, were persons who lived 700 years apart.


Edited by Larry - 17 June 2010 at 1:03pm
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2010 at 1:21pm
   I read your link to the Jewish article that claims that Isaiah 53 refers to the nation of Israel and not the Messiah. Well, what do you expect? How many Jews are going to believe that it refers to Jesus Christ as the Messiah? The rest of your reply is simply absurd. Chapter 53 of Isaiah is clearly speaking of a PERSON not a NATION. But this just goes to show how people twist and turn a prophecy to suit there own ends with absolutely no proof of what they are saying. Please cite the verses in Ezekiel and Jeremiah, Hoseas and Nahum that support your contention, since you used them as a backup to what you are claiming. Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled in it's entirety by Jesus Christ, every line accurately describes what He endured for the sake of all. Even the line "And they made His grave with the wicked, But with the rich at His death" describes His being crucified between two criminals but He was buried in the new tomb of a rich man, Joseph of Arimathea.
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2010 at 1:26pm
   I also think that it is odd that you are using the source "Jews for Judaism" to make your contentions that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was not the person referred to by Isaiah's prophecy. The person referred to in Isaiah Chapter 53 can be NO other person but Jesus Christ.
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