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Interfaith Dialogue
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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2010 at 11:58am

 JOUBERAR

 Mansoor It seems to me you are realy :ignorant" either you don't know who the "holy spirit" is, or you don't want to know who the "holy spirit" is, simply because of your tradisional back ground and your islamic education you don't want to "know better' and that is complete arrogance.

 
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 Not only Muhammad is mentioned in Gospel of John but he is also mentioned in Book of Isaiah 21:7.Let me quote the verse:

 Isaiah 21:7 And he saw a chariot with two horsemen, a rider upon an ass, and a rider upon a camel: and he beheld them diligently with much heed.(Douay-Rheimis Bible)

 Some Christians (not all) cite Isaiah 21:7 as an example of a prophecy concerning Jesus. Jesus is said to have rode into Jerusalem on a donkey as mentioned in John 12:14 and elsewhere in the other gospels.

 Tying that with Isaiah 21:7 which mentions a rider on an ass(donkey) they propose that Isaiah saw Jesus riding on a donkey into Jerusalem.

 But what about the other part of the verse that mentions a rider on a camel? The gospels do not mention at all Jesus riding on a camel into any city.

 Thus if the rider of the ass was indeed Jesus a.s. then who was the rider of the camel?

 Just as Jesus was riding an ass as a prophet and messenger of God so was Muhammad riding on a camel as a prophet and messenger of God.

 In fact, the parallel between the two is unmistakable. While Jesus a.s. as a massenger rode into a city (Jerusalem), Muhammad s.a.w. rode into a city (Yathrib or Medinah as it was later renamed). Just as Jesus was welcomed by a sizeable group of believers with shouts and singing of joy saying Hosanna, Hosanna as he arrived at the city so too was Muhammad s.a.w. greeted with shouts and singing of joy by a sizeable group of believers as he arrived at the city.

 Professor Emeritus of history Jaroslav Pelikan of Yale University writes in his bestseller and very well received Whose Bible is it?,

 “Later in the Book of Isaiah, the Septuagint’s “And I saw two mounted horsemen, and a rider on an ass, and a rider on a camel” became an embarrasement to Christian apologists but a welcome support to Muslim disputants, because it seemed to be prophesying not only that Jesus would enter into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday riding on a donkey, as the Christian Gospel described his doing in the New Testament, but that he would be followed (almost exactly six centuries later) by the prophet Muhammad, who was a camel driver.”(Jaroslav Pelikan. Whose Bible Is It? (2006).  United States: Penguin Books. p. 59)

 
 
 

 

 
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2010 at 4:17pm
Let me get this straight. You mention the "rider on a donkey and a rider on a camel" from the Book of Isaiah. By this you believe that the rider on a donkey was Jesus and the rider on a camel is Muhammad. So, did Muhammad go 1200 years back to Isaiah's time to ride alongside Jesus or 600 years back to the time of Jesus? Even to assume that the "rider on a camel" refers specifically to Muhammad is bizarre to say the least. And why, if Muhammad did ride the camel along with Jesus why isn't it mentioned in the Qur'an? It also surprises me that so many Muslims claim the Bible is corrupt but quote from it liberally when it suits their purpose.

Edited by Larry - 13 June 2010 at 4:52pm
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Quote I♥Jesus Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2010 at 10:46pm
Isaiah 21 is an oracle against the nation of Babylon.  It does not refer to Jesus.

The Paraclete or The Comforter is an alternate name for the Holy Spirit.  It has the article and is capitalized.  Ecclesiastes is written in Hebrew and not the same word at all  Just a translation issue.  A comforter is not a prophet; prophets were typically most uncomfortable. 
If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2010 at 1:06pm

 Larry

Let me get this straight. You mention the "rider on a donkey and a rider on a camel" from the Book of Isaiah. By this you believe that the rider on a donkey was Jesus and the rider on a camel is Muhammad. So, did Muhammad go 1200 years back to Isaiah's time to ride alongside Jesus or 600 years back to the time of Jesus? Even to assume that the "rider on a camel" refers specifically to Muhammad is bizarre to say the least.

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 Isaiah saw a vision of two riders. Who was the rider upon the ass? Every Sunday school student will tell us that this was a prophecy of Jesus (peace be upon him), as stated in John:"And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written," (John 12:14)

 
but who is the promised prophet who would ride the camel? If it is not Muhammad (peace be upon him) then this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

 
 Larry

And why, if Muhammad did ride the camel along with Jesus why isn't it mentioned in the Qur'an?


 Response

 Quran clearly says that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible but it is not an important that Quran specifically describes in this manner.

 Larry

 It also surprises me that so many Muslims claim the Bible is corrupt but quote from it liberally when it suits their purpose.

 Response

 Muslims never claim that whole Bible is corrupt.
 
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2010 at 2:54pm
   "Qur'an clearly states that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible but it is not an important that Qur'an specifically describes in this manner."
   Isaiah chapter 53 specifically refers to the future coming of Jesus, listing many of the details of His actual life and death. But I have seen nothing that refers in such a way to Muhammad. Did Isaiah say that the two riders would be serparated in time by 1,300 years? Just because someone is riding a camel, hardly a novelty in the Middle East, how does this mean that it is Muhammad? Why does Isaiah prophesy the coming of Jesus in 700 years with such specific prophecies of his life and crucifixion yet leave the identity of the "rider on a camel" as such a mystery? Is there any specific mention in Isaiah or the Bible that talks about specific things that happened during the life and death of Muhammad in Mecca or Medina. And if not, why assume that it refers to Muhammad?
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2010 at 6:59am

 Larry

   Isaiah chapter 53 specifically refers to the future coming of Jesus, listing many of the details of His actual life and death.

 Response

 Death is not mentioned.


 Larry

But I have seen nothing that refers in such a way to Muhammad. Did Isaiah say that the two riders would be serparated in time by 1,300 years?

 Response

 Yes it was a vision of Isaiah.

 
 Larry

Just because someone is riding a camel, hardly a novelty in the Middle East, how does this mean that it is Muhammad?

 Response

 How does?Just as Jesus was riding an ass as a prophet and messenger of God so was Muhammad riding on a camel as a prophet and messenger of God.

 In fact, the parallel between the two is unmistakable. While Jesus a.s. as a massenger rode into a city (Jerusalem), Muhammad s.a.w. rode into a city (Yathrib or Medinah as it was later renamed).

 Just as Jesus was welcomed by a sizeable group of believers with shouts and singing of joy saying Hosanna, Hosanna as he arrived at the city so too was Muhammad s.a.w. greeted with shouts and singing of joy by a sizeable group of believers as he arrived at the city.

 We read about this momentous incident in the life of the Prophet Muhammad in Martin Lings classic work on Muhammad’s s.a.w. biography,
 
“After the prayer the Prophet mounted Qaswa (his camel), and Abu Bakr and others of Quraysh also mounted their camels and set off with him for the city. .. Never was a day of great rejoicing. “Come is the Prophet of God! Come is the Prophet of God!” was the joyous cry that went up from more and more voices of men and women and children who had lined the route.” (Source:Martin Lings. Muhammad his life based on the earliest sources(2005). Lahore, Pakistan: Suhail Academy. p. 123)

 It is also worth noting the following authentic Hadiths show us that Muhammad rode camels:

Sahih Bukhari, Book 3, Number 67:
“Narrated ‘Abdur Rahman bin Abi Bakra’s father: Once the Prophet was riding his camel and a man was holding its rein….”

Sahiih Bukhari, Book 26, Number 681:
“Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet performed Tawaf of the Ka’ba while riding a camel, and whenever he came in front of the Corner, he pointed towards it (with something).”

Sahiih Bukhari, Book 26, Number 701:
“Narrated Ibn Abbas: I gave Zam-zam water to Allah’s Apostle and he drank it while standing. ‘Asia (a sub-narrator) said that ‘Ikrima took the oath that on that day the Prophet had not been standing but riding a camel.”

 Question:If Isaiah is not talking about Muhammad then whom he is talking about?Definitely he is not talking about Jesus Christ.No where Bible says that Jesus rode camel.Otherwise Prophecy is still unfulfilled.Now do you believe that Bible contains unfulfilled prophecy?

 Larry

Why does Isaiah prophesy the coming of Jesus in 700 years with such specific prophecies of his life and crucifixion yet leave the identity of the "rider on a camel" as such a mystery?

 Response

 First of all crucifixion is not mentioned in Book of Isaiah.Further i donot see any mystery.

 Larry

Is there any specific mention in Isaiah or the Bible that talks about specific things that happened during the life and death of Muhammad in Mecca or Medina. And if not, why assume that it refers to Muhammad?

 Response

 Isaiah in the Bible foretold the story of "Al-alak" in the Noble Quran which happened to Muhammad and never happened to any other Prophet.  It is the story where the Angel Gabriel repeatedly commands the Prophet to read, and the Prophet (i.e. Muhammad) repeatedly replies "I can't read".

 
Here you can read the entire article:
In the Book of Isaiah: Isaiah in the Bible foretold the story of "Al-alak" that is in the Noble Quran about Muhammad.
 
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2010 at 9:19am

Greetings….

If your heart is sincere perhaps this will help you because if God failed to keep and preserve his word then we’re all in trouble.

God’s Word does NOT contradict; people lack spiritual insight and comprehension into his words whether they are Christian, Jews or Muslims scholars. Scholars don’t speak for God and if religion has been indoctrinated by man or if some men have an agenda what in the world does that have to do with God’s Word being corrupted or a contradictory? If people don’t know by now that there are wicked forces at work to destroy God’s message then shame on them.     

In the beginning of the Qur’an haven’t you read: “[The righteous] trust what has been revealed to you [Mohammed] and to others before you, and firmly believe in the life to come.”—Sura 2, Al-Baqara [the Cow], verse 4.

*** “If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94)

What do you think is meant by “what has been revealed . . . to others before you”? Three separate writings are mentioned in the Qur’an. One is alluded to in the fifth Sura, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], in verses 43 and 44. (Sura 17, Al-Isra’ [The Night Journey], verse 55) (Sura 4, Al-Nisa’ [Women], verse 163)

The Qur’an also reads: “After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47

Here’s more . . .  “Children of Israel . . . Have faith in My revelations, which confirm your Scriptures.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 41)

“A Book confirming their own has come to them from Allah.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 89)

“When it is said to them: ‘Believe in what Allah has revealed,’ they reply: ‘We believe in what was revealed to us.’ But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is the truth, corroborating their own scriptures.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 91)

“He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of men, and the distinction between right and wrong.” (Sura 3, Al-Imran [The Imrans], verses 3, 4)

“This is a blessed Book which We have revealed, confirming what came before it.” (Sura 6, Al-An‛am [Cattle], verse 92)

 “What We have revealed to you in the Book is the truth confirming previous scriptures.”—Sura 35, Al-Fatir [The Creator], verse 31.

To sum this up, the Qur’an teaches that these three writings, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel, are from God.

If, at the time the Qur'an were written, and the Holy Word had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel ‘judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein’?

Believers in the Qur’an accept that the Holy Word was uncorrupted at the time the Qur’an was written (about one thousand three hundred years ago)

In the one hundred fourteen Suras, or chapters, of the Qur’an, at least sixty-two verses point out that these three writings come from God. And at least twelve other verses say that the Qur’an was written for the purpose of confirming these books.

But, If you or anyone else believe otherwise despite what your Quran says, then you too have been duke into believing one of the biggest lies in history. The other two being “God is dead” and “There is no Devil”

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2010 at 3:49pm
   Your responses were absurd from the start.
   "Just as Jesus was riding an ass as a prophet and messenger of God so was Muhammad riding on a camel as a prophet and messenger of God." And then you state that "In fact the paralell between the two is unmistakable. While Jesus a.s. as a messenger rode into a city (Jerusalem), Muhammad s.a.w. rode into a city (Yathrib or Medinah as it was later renamed."
   Is this what passes as the "proof" that Muhammad was the "rider on a camel"? Why not say that Jesus ate food and Muhammad ate food too. Or Jesus walked on his two feet and Muhammad also walked on his two feet.
   Trying to find paralell examples between Jesus and Muhammad, by using similar acts between the two, is patently ridiculous. Is this the kind of "proof" that Muslims use to portray Muhammad as the greatest of all the prophets?
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