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Rezz
 
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Quote Rezz Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 6:40am

Mockba, you asked

”Were are you when your leaders mutilate humans with tons of explosives on countries far away... claiming to be looking for weapons they will never find. Why do you begin questioning killing only when it comes as a retaliation for slaughter? Why not pause for a moment and work harder to stop slaughter? Perchance it will stop killing.”


My reply

Where were we?

In London we had the biggest demonstration in our history AGAINST the war in Iraq! Almost two million ordinary men and women came together in London and said “not in our name!”

What make you think people who took part in those demonstrations “questioning killing” weren’t murdered by those despicable terrorists on7/7?

Were the poor souls who died in London somehow to blame for being killed?

Are you saying Islam supports collective punishment?

Those filthy cowards TARGETED unarmed, innocent civilians on their way to work for God's sake!

Would it be right now for me to go now into a Muslim neighbourhood in London and kill some Muslims? After all, it is a fact that that community could do much more to prevent its members committing terrorist acts? So they shouldn’t be surprised to be murdered, right?

I’m sorry Mockba, I’ve had a lot of respect for your points in other Posts but these "Monkey see, monkey do" arguments are ridiculous  and so typical of the Muslim community.
 
Finally, haven’t Muslims learned that committing acts like this only strengthen the resolve of the Right? Hasn’t failure in Israel taught you that?

All hope we had of persuading our government to get out of Iraq quickly vanished on 7/7.

 

***LONDON 7/7***

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***WE ARE NOT AFRAID***
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 6:47am

Khadija, b'fazle talla, I hold no reasons to hate anyone at all. I just don't follow Dip Low Messy. I am one hundered percent straight. I hold a very sharp and a straight sword for those who slip at the sight of straight simple questions.

Please read my posts with questions and then see how some posters dive out of these and start singing something totally irrelevant. Sadly, mostly these posters happen to be Americans in my three years experience of this site.

Why should I hate anyone, I had a very loving Full Time mother, plus I am not from a success oriented culture. I hail from a culture where contentment means more than the dollars in your paakket.

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Quote rocitreal Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Khadija1021

Originally posted by Rezz

Mockba, you said in another discussion

The answer surely is that no man has the right to take another human's life, whatever the circumstances.

Rezz, does you statement mean that you believe a person does not have the right to self defense?

I sure think so just ask the families of 911 what they think.  If Iraqi's want to fight american soldiers i feel they have that right, but non-Iraqi's invading the country have no more place there, they are not helping anyone.

Peace, its more than a word its a dream.
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Quote rocitreal Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Whisper

British public are about the best we could find in our world at any time. They just refuse to be fooled by any BS or spin while our American friends are forced to ask stupid questions like "How do you define self defense"?

It's an English expression. You should be able to translate it for us. I think, it means something like that when you are invaded or occupied then you should not just sit back for the pleasure of the Washington gang, but fight back as hard as possible - exactly like what's happening in Afghanistan and Eyerak.

I dont think self defense is limited to an invasion or fight over the land.  If a gang sends someone to kill themselves and my familiy you better bet im going to find him and go after him where ever he is.

Peace, its more than a word its a dream.
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Whisper

British public are about the best we could find in our world at any time. They just refuse to be fooled by any BS or spin while our American friends are forced to ask stupid questions like "How do you define self defense"?

B: First of all Sasha (Whisper), you have no right nor basis to call me a friend.  Your consistent personal barbs and insults are not those of a friend.  And so you are insincere in your language.  That is quite clear.  Since the topic pertains to homicide bombers and 'blame' it is fair to ask a question about what people perceive falls into the category of self defense.  That might also pertain to the theological and practical justifications of a homicide bomber.  Sasha, on what basis would you question the legitimacy of that by calling such a question 'stupid'?!

It's an English expression. You should be able to translate it for us. I think, it means something like that when you are invaded or occupied then you should not just sit back for the pleasure of the Washington gang, but fight back as hard as possible - exactly like what's happening in Afghanistan and Eyerak.

B: Does that include killing children and shooting people in the back - is that justified in your pet theorizations of 'self defense?'  Perhaps we should be a wee bit more vigorous in our definition of what is justified by what - or I suppose you may be able to spin out a justification for killing any ol' American, as an example, as self defense for their imputed (by you) 'stupidity'.  Am I far off?  So please tell us at what point, you would authorize the killing for self defense in Iraq - would it be after the elections or before?  Would it be after the Constitution is written or before?  Would it be only the Sunnis who would act in 'self defense' since it was they who lost the most from the ousting and liberation from the heinous mass murderer Saddam?  Which part of this constitutes self defense Sasha?  Do the Shia'as have a right to act in self defense against the Saddamist and Sunnis and terrorists who are wantonly killing them?  And also to decide (as the majority and in self defense) to allow the MNF to stay for a while longer so that more slaughter and civil war does not occur?

Please correct me where my pre-suppositions don't comport with your views, Sasha, and serve to further answer this 'stupid' question (as you called it.)







Edited by b95000
Bruce
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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Rezz

Mockba, you asked

Were are you when your leaders mutilate humans with tons of explosives on countries far away... claiming to be looking for weapons they will never find. Why do you begin questioning killing only when it comes as a retaliation for slaughter? Why not pause for a moment and work harder to stop slaughter? Perchance it will stop killing.

My reply

Where were we?

In London we had the biggest demonstration in our history AGAINST the war in Iraq! Almost two million ordinary men and women came together in London and said “not in our name!

What make you think people who took part in those demonstrations “questioning killing” weren’t murdered by those despicable terrorists on7/7?

Were the poor souls who died in London somehow to blame for being killed?
Aree you saying Islam supports collective punishment?

Those filthy cowards TARGETED unarmed, innocent civilians on their way to work for God's sake!
Would it be right now for me to go now into a Muslim neighbourhood in London and kill some Muslims? After all, it is a fact that that community could do much more to prevent its members committing terrorist acts? So they shouldn’t be surprised to be murdered, right?

I’m sorry Mockba, I’ve had a lot of respect for your points in other Posts but these "Monkey see, monkey do" arguments are ridiculous  and so typical of the Muslim community.

Finally, haven’t Muslims learned that committing acts like this only strengthen the resolve of the Right? Hasn’t failure in Israel taught you that?

All hope we had of persuading our government to get out of Iraq quickly vanished on 7/7.

The problem is that when western governments drop bombs  - the opposing public think it sufficient to wave flags of protest and dance to the music of some anti-war charity pop-show... nevermind that the killing continues. They do the same when they see off their military youth leaving their families behind in order to kill someone else's.

When the vicitms of those bombings retaliate (please note that we are not discussing Islam here that Blair is coveniently associating in his campaign) you demand action... you are not satisifed with official statements, you want everything mended, you want every muslim newborn to have a GPS tracking microchip implant and have them monitored 24/7. 

The filthy cowards are our leaders today. They sit, behind state-of the art security systems, remote control in hand, playing their War In Iraq reality-games... yet having nightmares of possible retaliation. 

The filthy cowards are suicide bombers who having been inspired by those very murderous leaders decide to go on the extreme by committing horror.

The filthy cowards are us, who watch nations bleed to death and instead of ending horror, we search for excuses to approve and let continue... 

Failure in Israel, as well as failure in Iraq, and entire region is failure of Arab leaders who have prostituted themselves... that's what today's leadership is all about, anyway. 

This is an unjust war and i dont think any explanations will be found.  I regret however that you are "attributing monkey see moneky do" comments to Muslims. You should have attributed these comments to Bush and Blair prior to their invasion of the world and worldviews...

I have not touched on the stand of Islam in this post, therefore it will be appreciated if you could abstain from wrongful generalisation.

 

MOCKBA
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA

The problem is that when western governments drop bombs  - the opposing public think it sufficient to wave flags of protest and dance to the music of some anti-war charity pop-show... nevermind that the killing continues. They do the same when they see off their military youth leaving their families behind in order to kill someone else's.

B: Do you believe in any case of 'just war' or 'just jihad?'

When the vicitms of those bombings retaliate (please note that we are not discussing Islam here that Blair is coveniently associating in his campaign) you demand action...

B: What are you calling 'retaliation'?  Mockba, why don't we trace actual events rather than putting out generalizations?  Are you talking about the bombing of Kandahar in 2001 after AQ slaughtered 3000 innocents in one hour?

Failure in Israel, as well as failure in Iraq, and entire region is failure of Arab leaders who have prostituted themselves... that's what today's leadership is all about, anyway. 

This is an unjust war and i dont think any explanations will be found.  I regret however that you are "attributing monkey see moneky do" comments to Muslims. You should have attributed these comments to Bush and Blair prior to their invasion of the world and worldviews...

I have not touched on the stand of Islam in this post, therefore it will be appreciated if you could abstain from wrongful generalisation.

B: This allows for a difficult question.  If Islam is the greatest religion, the final expression of God, if it is so powerful, why is all this happening?  Why is Allah/God allowing this to happen?

Bruce
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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2005 at 1:39am

Bismillah

A retaliation, even if it is for an american military boot stepping on the territory of another country, for pointing a gun at an unarmed person and pressing dirty boot against his face to secure him,... there are too many specific instances to retaliate for. (Now don't just go and spin it into "MOCKBA supporting terrorists and approving bombing of London"). You can never stop tracing back the date of who started it first? However, September 11 is not beginning of era to me, as it is to some.

As far as your difficult question is concerned. I personally believe that this is all happening primarily as a result of Islam not being reflected in action by Muslims. The leaders have traded Islam for royal thrones, and people have allowed themselves tricked into supporting such move and praising their Kings and Idols. Once people distance themselves from God's commands their destruction (moral, physical, spiritual etc.) is only a matter of time.

As far as "just jihad" is concerned, your question is not very clear. I believe in Allah, and if He prescribes jihad, whether reflected in seeking knowledge, restraining myself from evil deeds, earning a living or taking action to protect my family and brethren then i try to obey to the best of my ability. Jihad cannot be unjust... therefore using "just" as an additional emphasis is unnecessary. I undertsand you have launched a separate thread on the subject and there were some very good responses to your enquiry.   

MOCKBA
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