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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Meditations
 
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bullet Posted: 10 September 2009 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

That's interesting Ali, all these links, quotes and statements but no one can find a copy, not ONE copy or ancient manuscript before it so-called "corruption"

Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these uncorrupted manuscripts and save them as proof?


Just one simple questions, I'll wait for the answer

Thank you,



And why would Muslims want to search these manuscripts ( if existed ) ?
The fact that there's no coherency between the various versions is enough proof
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bullet Posted: 10 September 2009 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

It has been said by Muslims "The corruption / alteration to these books occured over long periods of time and still occur in our modern times , a look on ' a new version ' of the bible would demonstrate this"

When did the corruptions begin? Before?




Before and After


Originally posted by Shibboleth


Closely read what your Quran says:

2: 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." 

39: 1        The revelation of this Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power Full of Wisdom. 2        Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth: so serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion.



Originally posted by Shibboleth


If the Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous.


This is a very wrong analogy , which is seems you keep on building upon it's logic

Muslims believe in these Prophets , that they existed , that they were Prophets sent by God , and they were sent with these revelations
This is no sense implies that these revelations were not corrupted

If I trust that someone gave you a letter , this by no means implies that I believe this letter wouldn't have been altered by someone else later on

Originally posted by Shibboleth



Perhaps Meditations and Ali can together come up with the answer to this question -
Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these uncorrupted manuscripts and save them as proof?


For various reasons some of it
1: There's no point in doing this , the existence of the various 'versions' of the old and new testament is enough proof
2: Even if these manuscripts existed and were available to them , it would be of no use , since the revelation of the Qur'an becomes the new law for believers

Originally posted by Shibboleth


When did the corruptions begin?

Corruption definetly began before the times of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) The question is , when was the bible/OT written ? by Whom ?

Also , in our modern days, knowing when it began is of little value , the fact that today , year 2009 , there're so many 'versions' , that are
1: different from each other
2: contradicts each other at times
3: have no direct link to Jesus or Moses ( PBUT )

Makes us 100% certain that what we have now , couldn't be 100% what was revealed to Jesus or Moses ( PBUT )

Is this enough answer ?

Regards


Edited by Meditations - 10 September 2009 at 3:21pm
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honeto
 
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bullet Posted: 11 September 2009 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

That's interesting Ali, all these links, quotes and statements but no one can find a copy, not ONE copy or ancient manuscript before it so-called "corruption"

Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these uncorrupted manuscripts and save them as proof?


Just one simple questions, I'll wait for the answer

Thank you,

 
 
Shibbo,
you really don't understand Islam, its purpose and why God blessed us with His pure word again, the final Testament, the Quran.
If the previous messege sent by God through Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was not corrupted/ altered, the Quran was not needed. The only reason of its being sent was to fill the void, the gap created by alterations to the word of God. And in a result humanity was without pure word of God thus not knowing how to worship Him correctly and how to live out lives correctly. Thus the pure word of God was revealed again to a prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).
We see, that humanity was sent God's word thorugh various prophets in different times which also proves that every time people altered God's word sent through one prophet, God showing His Mercy sent another one in sucession so all humanity get the same chance. To be rightly guided through the pure word of God because one day they will be judged by it and be held accountable for it how they lived.
Get it? If not, I will be glad to go in further details my friend as its only through God's guidence and your surrendering to the truth that will take you sucessfully into the next stage of life. So ask God's forgiveness and guidence, toward your own benefit God willing.
 
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 13 September 2009 at 2:27pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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bullet Posted: 11 September 2009 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

That's interesting Ali, all these links, quotes and statements but no one can find a copy, not ONE copy or ancient manuscript before it so-called "corruption"
 
 Are you talking about ORIGINAL COPY of the Bible?The problem with your Bible is that it has no any SINGLE ORIGINAL manuscript.Even your own scholars and theologians confirm it.
 
 How r you 100% sure that original manuscripts were inspired when you have never seen them?
Originally posted by Shibboleth

Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these uncorrupted manuscripts and save them as proof?
 
Just one simple questions, I'll wait for the answer Thank you,
 
 Who are those "ancient muslims" explain it.
 
 Ok.Let set aside muslims even Biblical scholars just like Dr.Bart Ehrman who is New Testament scholar and textual critic admits that Bible is not "pure".
 
 Visit:
 
 
Originally posted by Shibboleth

It has been said by Muslims "The corruption / alteration to these books occured over long periods of time and still occur in our modern times , a look on ' a new version ' of the bible would demonstrate this"

When did the corruptions begin? Before?
 
 These kinds of questions:(Who corrupted the Bible?When?Where?Before or after Muhammad?Why was it done? How come no one noticed it?) are already answered here by brother Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
 
 
 

 
 
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bullet Posted: 11 September 2009 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth


Closely read what your Quran says:

2: 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." 

39: 1        The revelation of this Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power Full of Wisdom. 2        Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth: so serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion.


If the
Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous.

 
 Your argument is responed here:
 
 
 
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bullet Posted: 11 September 2009 at 3:05pm

Med says” And why would Muslims want to search these manuscripts (If existed )
For starters truth vs. false and to prove your point that the billions and billions of Bibles on the face of this earth are corrupt. It’s been tried but NO ONE can prove ancient manuscrpts, they always come up empty handed.

 

God preserved his word, that’s why it still exists today!

 

يَبِسَ الْعُشْبُ، ذَبُلَ الزَّهْرُ. وَأَمَّا كَلِمَةُ إِلهِنَا فَتَثْبُتُ إِلَى الأَبَدِ».

 

Isaiah 40:6-8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

 

So, instead everyone shows links and statements on how corrupt the Bible is, SORRY! That’s no more evidence then me showing you links, websites, and statements of apostate Muslims, Muslim scholars on how contradictory and corrupt the Quran is. That’s not proof nor is it science, that is plan “hear say”

 

If you want to prove how corrupt the Bible is even though it PREDATES the Quran by decades and COPIES of it had been found in caves (Dead Sea Scrolls) in the mid 1900’s, but it manuscripts dates back all the way to the 3rd century BCE, and the writings and messages are basically STILL the same be my guess.

 

Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New Testament texts.
 
     a.   Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
     b.   Amr al-Ghakhiz (869)     "    "    "    "
     c.   BUKHARI (810-870)       "    "    "    "
          (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
     d.   Al-Mas'udi (956)         "    "    "    "
     e.   Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina  (1037)"   "    "
     f.   AL-GHAZZALI (1111)       "    "    "    "
          (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
     g.   Ibn-Khaldun (1406)       "    "    "    "    "    " he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)
     h.   Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
     i.   Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but according to eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation."   
(If such was the case their would have been an uncorrupted AND corrupted  text / version / and or manuscript somewhere around) 
 
WHY do you believe Ibn-Khazem rather then the witness of the Quran, the word of Muhammad, and these 10 great Muslim scholars who ALL believed the Bible texts to be truthful
 
Where are the manuscripts that have NOT been corrupted people? YOU keep saying they were corrupted BEFORE and AFTER the prophet, I keep asking show me copies of it, IF there are any.  
 
Authentic and Science: not false; genuine; real: an authentic antique, factual.
**Manuscripts of the Bible (Holy Writings) that dates back to the 2nd and 3 rd century that has the same message as we have today, 2009 but has not been proven otherwise.
 
Myth andTheory: a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation.

**The Bible is corrupted, been tampered with but no ancient proof or manuscript or dates to prove it. No explanation as to why all the billions of Bibles circulated in the earth has the SAME message but unable to find ANY ancient books that’s says differently.  

 

 

 



Edited by Shibboleth - 11 September 2009 at 3:07pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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bullet Posted: 12 September 2009 at 1:45am
Originally posted by Shibboleth


For starters truth vs. false and to prove your point that the billions and billions of Bibles on the face of this earth are corrupt. It’s been tried but NO ONE can prove ancient manuscrpts, they always come up empty handed.


There're so many ways to prove such thing , not the one way you're thinking of

These billions and billions of copies you speak of are quite different of each other , this is the proof

Would you like to point us to which version of the current bible you think of is the authentic bible ?


Originally posted by Shibboleth

God preserved his word, that’s why it still exists today!


It is true , it's named the Qur'an

Originally posted by Shibboleth


If you want to prove how corrupt the Bible is even though it PREDATES the Quran by decades and COPIES of it had been found in caves (Dead Sea Scrolls) in the mid 1900’s, but it manuscripts dates back all the way to the 3rd century BCE, and the writings and messages are basically STILL the same be my guess.

This is exactly my point

The earliest reference to the bible is over 200 years after Jesus ( PBUH )

What direct link does it have to Jesus ( PBUH ) ? do you know who wrote it ? heard it from who ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New Testament texts.

This is a very wild claim , please prove it by quoting whom you mentioned ( as asked from you before in another post ) or delete it ) 



Originally posted by Shibboleth





Where are the manuscripts that have NOT been corrupted people? YOU keep saying they were corrupted BEFORE and AFTER the prophet, I keep asking show me copies of it, IF there are any.  


You're asking muslims to do your home work

The scientific was is that
If you're claiming the bible is uncorrupt, and the current one ( whichever you choose ) is what was revealed to Jesus ( PBUH ) then present it to us
It is then your duty to explain the contradictions we come up with between what you claim is the authentic bible and

A: History
B: Other versions
C: Modern Science

If you'd like to do so , please open another topic with this start , saying ,
"Hey people , this is the uncorrupt bible prove it to be corrupt "
Would like to do so ?

Regards

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bullet Posted: 16 September 2009 at 7:53pm
Homework???????????????????????????????????????
Sorry, Jesus confirmed the Torah, the Psalms and the Injil waaaaay before you and I or the prophet were ever born. Schools out! All my posts attests to what Jesus said regarding people who would come after him when he died 2000 yrs ago, the uncensored and uncorrupted version. I even posted the Aramaic version to prove every point regarding  the 'messenger'

But, show me what scriptures was corrupted in the Bible regarding Muhammad, that's the real issue. As Muslims say the Quran mentions Jesus by NAME several time, it had to. But No where will you or anyone find Muhammad's name in the Bible.

Do you know Umayya bin abi al-Salt, a maternal cousin of Mohammed, claimed to be a prophet? A lie.

Do you know The Midianites never even heard of Mecca and Moses never mentioned it? Truth

BTW, the Bible has always appeared to be corrupted to non-believers and those who deny the Christ, that's nothing new.
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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