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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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bullet Posted: 01 September 2009 at 4:44pm
Shibbo,
every Muslim knows through the Quran that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet from God, born to a virgin and given God's word to guide humanity.
As far as geneology of the prophet, I am not an expert on it, I know that we all are decendents of Adam. It does not make a penny's difference if prophet was his decendent or not. You are not believing the purpose he was sent for: to bring us all back to the worship of our Creator, not if he was decendent of so and so. So you over look the grand purpose of the prophet and want to find something of no importance which you can use and mislead others. Some silly argument, nothing more.
 
No, the corrupted Bible was not revealed to anyone, God revealed it uncorrupt to the prophets, people later brought it to its corrupt stage, as we see as a witnessed truth now in our hands.
 
Who witnessed the revelation of the Quran? probably none, as prophet use to go alone to meditate, as far as I know. But what is your point?
The proof is in the pudding, the consistancy of the Quran speaks for its truth, that  its was revealed by the All knowing, thus its does not contradict. On the other hand the Bible can be proved, as I and many other have,
unfortunetly a book of only contradictions and  confusion. 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 01 September 2009 at 5:01pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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bullet Posted: 01 September 2009 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

I answer your questions on your posts, why are you unable to answer mines?

It's strange that you say so, because I keep asking you some questions in your posts that you don't answer

Originally posted by Shibboleth


 Allah was lord of Mecca way before a Muhammad ever existed or was thought of;


The word 'Allah' is a reference to the one and only God , Creator of everything , you can call the Creator , God , Allah , The most merciful , what matters is the named , not the name

Originally posted by Shibboleth


Which ONE of the historical twelve tribes of Ishmael made mention of a Mohammad or any Prophet in their family?  

Which 12 tribes do you mean ? Do you know their names ?

Do you know which tribe Adnan came from ?


Who witness the ‘messenger’ receiving the Revelation from the angel Gabriel that took 23 years?

Even though there's no need for someone else to 'witness' a revelation, as others have pointed out this didn't happen with most of the Prophets

That said , revelations came in different forms , sometimes directly , sometimes through Angel Gebril

Sayeda Khadija witnessed when revelations came to the Prophet ( PBUH )
Several companions witness Angel Gebril coming to the Prophet in a human shape and speaking with him among them

Did Muhammad have the uncorrupted or corrupted version of the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel revealed to him?



The corruption / alteration to these books occured over long periods of time and still occur in our modern times , a look on ' a new version ' of the bible would demonstrate this

Prophet Muhammad didn't have these books in a written form , but many things of what's in it was revealed to Him

Qur'an and several sayings of His speaks about events / issues discussed in these previous books , one of the reasons to debate jews and christians in case of needed argument

That said, it's worth mentioning the story of the envoy of Najran

The Holy Prophet was sending invitations to all to accept the true religion of God.
Tribe after tribe, region after region, were coming into the fold of Islam. One such invitation was sent to the Christians of Najran, a town in Yemen, in the 9th year of Hijra. A deputation of 60 scholars came to discuss the matter with the Holy Prophet.
Abdul Masih, ( slave of Jesus ) the chief monk, asked him as to who was the father of Isa, thinking that the Holy Prophet would accept (God as the father of Isa.
Verse 59 of this surah

[ 3:59] The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

was revealed and presented to the Christians as a reply but they did not listen to reason.
Then this verse was revealed to call them to a spiritual contest by invoking the curse of Allah on the liars mubahilah.


فَمَنْ حَآجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْاْ نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ وَنِسَاءنَا وَنِسَاءكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَةُ اللّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}
[ 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

 
The Christians agreed to this contest.

Early next morning, the Prophet came in, Imam Husayn in his arms, Imam Hasan holding his index finger, walking beside him, Bibi Fatimah Zahra, close to his heels and Imam Ali just behind

The Holy Prophet raised his hands to the heaven and said:

"O my Lord! These are the people of my house".

The chief monk looked up and down at their faces He cried out aloud:

"I see the faces that if they turn upward to the heavens and pray, the mountains shall move.

The Christians saw the wisdom of their chief and readily agreed to arrive at a settlement and didn't want to go pray for cursing the liars .

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bullet Posted: 02 September 2009 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

"Of course not confusing for the people who are drunkards, dope heads and consumers of everything unlawful by the real God's laws and also want a free ride to paradise in the heavens... In my book if Jesus was son of god he has no genealogy....PeriodThis explanation just doesn't make sense...
Luke  & Matthews were just not smart enough to realize what they were doing...

IMHO Jehovah's witness like you not even qualified to discuss these things"


Sign *Reader, I suspect you’re not an Imam which is ok, I'm sure you would love to be one day but you’re a very contentious Muslim. "Pride comes before a crash" You have little understanding of the Quran and no understanding of the Holy Scriptures.

Children of Israel. . . Have faith in My revelations, which confirm your Scriptures.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 41) “A Book confirming their own has come to them from Allah.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 89) “When it is said to them: ‘Believe in what Allah has revealed,’ they reply: ‘We believe in what was revealed to us.’ But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is the truth, corroborating their own scriptures.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 91) “He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of men, and the distinction between right and wrong.” (Sura 3, Al-Imran [The Imrans], verses 3, 4) “This is a blessed Book which We have revealed, confirming what came before it.” (Sura 6, Al-An‛am [Cattle], verse 92) “If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) “What We have revealed to you in the Book is the truth confirming previous scriptures.”—Sura 35, Al-Fatir [The Creator], verse 31.

The Qur’an teaches that these three writings, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel (Injeel) are from God (that's not me saying it)  if they weren’t you wouldn’t even have the Quran. If you disagree, it’s all good. Agree to disagree but don’t set the pace of resorting to offensive words “senior member” it’s a terrible example.

Say, "We believe in Allah and what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma’il (Ishmael) and Ishaq (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob) and the Tribes, and what Musa (Moses) and ‘Isa (Jesus) and all the Prophets were given by their Lord. We do not differentiate between any of them..." (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85

 
 
Shibbo..
its intresting you wrote something, yet forget to read it:
Read what you wrote aloud: " Children of Israel. . . Have faith in My revelations, which confirm your Scriptures.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 41)
Do you have faith in the revelations (Quran) that confirm your scripture?
 
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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bullet Posted: 03 September 2009 at 5:29am
alaikum salaam shibbolth ( i can pronouce the sh by the way.) 
 

***Except for the lineage of Jesus, which was documented by written books of the Holy Bible through the centuries, no other family in history has ever accounted for their ancestors over a period of 2,000 years.***

So what makes you think that the above statement is true? and the lineage is correct.
  It's totaly different in Matthew then in Luke. it's writen in backward form in luke to further confuse the reader. and thats the problem some christians. they turn away from the words(atributed to) of jesus(pbuh) gods most beloved. The
Christ ,The Savior and The Messiah. what does he say of his lineage?? well here it is.
 
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christd]'>[d]? Whose son is he?"
      "The son of David," they replied.

 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
 44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand
   until I put your enemies
      under your feet." 'e]'>[e] 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

he also states if do not accept his word " the word coming from his mouth" it's his word that will condem you! as writen in John 15
leland
 


Edited by Nazarene - 03 September 2009 at 5:41am
love for all conquers all
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bullet Posted: 07 September 2009 at 11:49am

Mansor Ali, you only answered two of the three questions.

But to be clear, if it’s not in the Holy Bible it’s not from God regardless of whom or where it comes from, a Bishop, a Rabbi, the Pope, Imam, etc……God’s word even warns of angels who say they come in his name. The Devil and his demons can transform themselves as angels of light and deceive many, which they have. I follow Christ not a man like David, Moses, Job, etc….That is why there are so many man made religions in the first place.

BTW Moses and Jesus performed many miracles to prove their leadership and that they were divinely sent whether they believed the miracles or not. All the others you mentioned were just faithful servants.

I had asked which ONE of the historical twelve tribes of Ishmael made mention of a Mohammad or any Prophet in their family? You gave no answer; you asked a question with a question. 

I asked who witness the ‘messenger’ receiving the Revelation from the angel Gabriel that took 23 years. No answer, again you asked a question with a question. 

I also asked Ali, did Muhammad have the uncorrupted or corrupted version of the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel revealed to him? Your answer; Ofcourse Bible was corrupted when Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad.  If the Bible was not corrupted then there was no need of Quran. That’s why I continue to ask Muslims to come up with an uncorrupted version since Muslim say the version of the Bible we have is corrupt. To make such a claim, where’s the PROOF? When did the corruption take place? Would God allow something like that to happen?

If it had been corrupted, Muslims have a serious matter on their hand. Why? Because many Qur’ānic verses call for faith in the Torah and the Injīl. (For example, see Al-Baqarah [2]:136; Āl ‘Imrān [3]:84; Al-Nisā’ [4]:136.) The Qur’ān also recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injīl, saying: “If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.” (Al-Naḥl [16]:43; Al-Anbiyā’ [21]:7) Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Qur’ānic verses call out to “People of the Book” (the Torah and the Injīl) to turn back to their books. (For instance, see Al-Mā’idah [5]:50, 71.) Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books would it?

Also, “After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.

If, at the time these words were written, the Bible had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel ‘judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein’? Thus believers in the Qur’an accept that the Bible was uncorrupted at the time the Qur’an was written (about one thousand three hundred years ago).

On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today. When comparing our modern Bibles with these ancient manuscripts, it is easily seen that there is no significant difference. The Bible is substantially the same. Certainly, the Bible has not changed since those words were written in the Qur’an saying that in the Gospel “there is guidance and light.”



Edited by icforumadmin - 07 September 2009 at 3:13pm
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bullet Posted: 08 September 2009 at 2:10pm
Mansor Ali, you only answered two of the three questions.

But to be clear, if it’s not in the Holy Bible it’s not from God regardless of whom or where it comes from, a Bishop, a Rabbi, the Pope, Imam, etc……God’s word even warns of angels who say they come in his name. The Devil and his demons can transform themselves as angels of light and deceive many, which they have. I follow Christ not a man like David, Moses, Job, etc….That is why there are so many man made religions in the first place.

 According to you Devil can transform himselve as angel of light and deceive many,If this is a case then Paul was also deceived by Devil.Who says that?Not me but your Bible says it.
 
 Visit:
 
 Did Paul meet Satan? By brother Sami Zaatari
 
 Further Christ is only Prophet (not God or 2nd person of Trinity) like other Prophets.He is only man like other men such as David,Moses etc.In other words he is not more than a Prophet.
 
 I had asked which ONE of the historical twelve tribes of Ishmael made mention of a Mohammad or any Prophet in their family? You gave no answer; you asked a question with a question
 
 And you didnot answer our question.Let's suppose none of the 12 tribes of Ishmael mentioned Muhammad.Then it's mean Muhammad is not a Prophet?This is a criteria to Judge Prophethood of Muhammad?What a Joke with us.
 
 As I said if this is a case then there is no problem bec Prophecy of Muhammad is already mentioned in your own Bible which you consider reliable.
 
 Muhammad in the Old & New Testament By Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean.
 
 I asked who witness the ‘messenger’ receiving the Revelation from the angel Gabriel that took 23 years. No answer, again you asked a question with a question.
 
 If you can ask question then we also have a right to ask question and you also didnot touch our question.
 
 I also asked Ali, did Muhammad have the uncorrupted or corrupted version of the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel revealed to him? Your answer; Ofcourse Bible was corrupted when Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad.  If the Bible was not corrupted then there was no need of Quran. That’s why I continue to ask Muslims to come up with an uncorrupted version since Muslim say the version of the Bible we have is corrupt. To make such a claim, where’s the PROOF? When did the corruption take place?
 
 Here are various proofs of corruption of Bible:
 
 
 Who Authored the New Testament By brother Bassam Zawadi
 
 Is the Bible Reliable? By brother Jalal Abualrub
 
 Examining The Bible By brother Dr. M S M Saifullah and his team
 
 Whose canon is divinely inspired? By brother Ibn Anwar
 
 Historical Inaccuracy of Luke By brother Ibn Anwar
 
 When did the Bible come to be? By brother Ibn Anwar
 
 The Bible By brother Osama Abdullah 
 
 Would God allow something like that to happen?
 
 It was not God who corrupted it.They were people who did that to satisfy their wrong desires.
 
 If it had been corrupted, Muslims have a serious matter on their hand. Why? Because many Qur’ānic verses call for faith in the Torah and the Injīl. (For example, see Al-Baqarah [2]:136; Āl ‘Imrān [3]:84; Al-Nisā’ [4]:136.) The Qur’ān also recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injīl, saying: “If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.” (Al-Naḥl [16]:43; Al-Anbiyā’ [21]:7) Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Qur’ānic verses call out to “People of the Book” (the Torah and the Injīl) to turn back to their books. (For instance, see Al-Mā’idah [5]:50, 71.) Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books would it?

Also, “After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.

If, at the time these words were written, the Bible had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel ‘judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein’? Thus believers in the Qur’an accept that the Bible was uncorrupted at the time the Qur’an was written (about one thousand three hundred years ago).

 Does Islam Endorse The Bible? By brother Bassam Zawadi
 
 Does the Quran confirm the Bible in it's whole? By Sami Zaatari
 
 The authenticity of the Bible according to the Quran,Corrupt or Uncorrupt:By brother Sami Zaatari
 
 
 
 
  On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today. When comparing our modern Bibles with these ancient manuscripts, it is easily seen that there is no significant difference. The Bible is substantially the same. Certainly, the Bible has not changed since those words were written in the Qur’an saying that in the Gospel “there is guidance and light.”
 
 
 
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bullet Posted: 09 September 2009 at 9:22pm
That's interesting Ali, all these links, quotes and statements but no one can find a copy, not ONE copy or ancient manuscript before it so-called "corruption"

Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these uncorrupted manuscripts and save them as proof?


Just one simple questions, I'll wait for the answer

Thank you,

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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bullet Posted: 09 September 2009 at 9:35pm
It has been said by Muslims "The corruption / alteration to these books occured over long periods of time and still occur in our modern times , a look on ' a new version ' of the bible would demonstrate this"

When did the corruptions begin? Before?


Closely read what your Quran says:

2: 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." 

39: 1        The revelation of this Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power Full of Wisdom. 2        Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth: so serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion.


If the
Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous.

Perhaps Meditations and Ali can together come up with the answer to this question -
Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these uncorrupted manuscripts and save them as proof?

When did the corruptions begin?


Edited by Shibboleth - 10 September 2009 at 2:14pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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