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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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bullet Posted: 18 September 2009 at 11:00pm
Dear Shibboleth

first of all, you mentioned several times that a list of well known scholars, whom you mentioned their names don't believe in the corruption/alteration of the bible
I asked you more than once I think to provide reference for this, still waiting for it


Originally posted by Shibboleth

Homework???????????????????????????????????????


Yes, because you claim that what you have now is the same that was revealed to Moses and Jesus ( PBUT )
Then what is your proof for that ?


Originally posted by Shibboleth


Sorry, Jesus confirmed the Torah, the Psalms and the Injil waaaaay before you and I or the prophet were ever born. Schools out!


This is not the point of difference, Prophet Muhammad also confirmed the existence of the  Ta'rah and Injil

The point of difference is whether what we have now is the same as what was revealed , or had it been altered ? intentionally or non-intentionally ?



Originally posted by Shibboleth


 All my posts attests to what Jesus said regarding people who would come after him when he died 2000 yrs ago, the uncensored and uncorrupted version. I even posted the Aramaic version to prove every point regarding  the 'messenger'

I recall that it was me who posted the link to the oragnization that's trying to translate the bible from Aramic
I also recall there was quite difference between going from Greek to English , or from Aramic to English
What language did Jesus ( PBUH ) speak anyways ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth


But, show me what scriptures was corrupted in the Bible regarding Muhammad, that's the real issue. As Muslims say the Quran mentions Jesus by NAME several time, it had to.

It is true, Jesus ( PBUH ) is mentioned several times in the Qur'an, there's a whole surat in the name of his mother Mariam ( PBUH )
Originally posted by Shibboleth


 But No where will you or anyone find Muhammad's name in the Bible.

This is the difference between us muslims and you, while we endorse all Prophets and books revealed from God, you choose to endorse only some
Quite similar to how the jews don't believe in Jesus


Originally posted by Shibboleth

Do you know Umayya bin abi al-Salt, a maternal cousin of Mohammed, claimed to be a prophet? A lie.

Do you know The Midianites never even heard of Mecca and Moses never mentioned it? Truth


Assuming this is true, so ?

BTW, the Bible has always appeared to be corrupted to non-believers and those who deny the Christ, that's nothing new.
[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for others throughout the years, but today, in year 2009 It seems to be the only scientific logical conclusion that the current bible is not 100 % what was revealed to Moses and Jesus ( PBUH )

a member here of the name 'Moses' recently posted here
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15160&PN=6
how the bible was collected/written bringing dates of the collection

This is my reply to him hope you find it useful


>>>
Summarizing what you said it means :

New testament was written in Greek between the years 45-95 , these writings we have no reference to at the moment, correct ?

There're 5600 greek manuscripts that still exist
The oldest papyrus we have was copied year 125
The oldest compilation that contains almost what's called now new and old testament dates back to year 350

First : The old testament
A scientific approach would mean we need to know

When was it revealed
How it was written
Which language it was written in
Who wrote it
How did reach us


Without knowing these answers, can we tell that what we call today 'the old testament' is what was revealed to Moses ( PBUH ) ?

Second : The new testament
Which language did Jesus speak ? Greek, Hebrew or Aramic ?
Combining the 5,600 manuscripts you speak of together, what percentage would it make of the new / old testament ?

Assuming the earliest dates you mentioned
What is the guarantee that something that was written on the year 45 then copied on year 125 ( and stretches in parts to year 225 at least ) retains completely it's original

For us muslims, having a 45 days gap ( not a 45 months or a 45 year, not mention tens or hunderds  ) between a person who receives a message / text ...etc. and the next person who reports / writes it , makes it an unacceptable
The weakest category of sayings of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), hadeeth da'eef ( weak hadeeth ) which some scholars don't even accept to use it as evidence, have way far authenticity that this   

Add to that, that according to the three categories you mention


Originally posted by Moses

   First, the books must have apostolic authority-- that is, they must have been written either by the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses to what they wrote about, or by associates of the apostles.

·         Second, there was the criterion of conformity to what was called the "rule of faith." In other words, was the document congruent with the basic Christian tradition that the church recognized as normative.

·         Third, there was the criterion of whether a document had enjoyed continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large.



Means they didn't only accept what was written by the apostles or their associates , they accepted what seems to suit ( the rule of faith ) and the general acceptance and usage by the church at large!

This in any logical sense makes us sure what was written can not be proven to be 100 % exactly what was revealed

Also , the words rule of faith , and general acceptance and usage by the curch seem to be very flexible words
Which rule of faith you speak of ? the one that says Jesus is God, or Son of God ?
Which church acceptance , the catholic church, orthodox church, angelic church ? Which church did accept this ?

Set aside that we're muslims, how can you prove to someone who's not muslim, that the current bible have any links to Jesus ( PBUH ) ? you have no direct links,
you don't  know
for sure who wrote each of these manuscripts
you don't know whom they received it from
you don't know what were their ideologies, if they had motives to alter it or not

How can you convince someone to accept such links to what you claim is the source of salvation and eternal happiness ? Even if I wasn't muslim, it wouldn't make any sense from a logical / scientific point of view

Which is no surprise most of the west today reject faith in all, or think of it as something contradictory to science

That said about the old compilations, I urge you to fetch a copy of the bible that's only 200 years old, and closely start comparing it with the current printed version, I'm sure you'll be very surprised

>>>>>

Best Regards
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bullet Posted: 19 September 2009 at 5:06pm

The Dead Sea Scrolls authentication of the Holy Bible is the oldest manuscripts that CONFIRMS what we call the BIBLE (OT/NT) in it’s purest form today September 19, 2009.  

Over time, some 900 separate scrolls were found. They date from the third century BCE through the first century CE. My word just Google it, yall google everything else!

Just sending a link or someone’s opinion on the subject just doesn’t cut it! Present facts not opinions! Can you find these links or statements at a museum, no! Do they date back before the time of Muhammad, no!

You have proven again in your world, opinions are what matters not facts not real solid evidence. Go to the Qumran Library, the library of Congress, the British Museum, Israel Museum or Google it from the comfort of your home. That’s PROOF! Not links and debates, those are ONLY opinions, one-sided because I can’t ask them question etc…

Read with an open mind **Pay specific attention to #10 and #25**

http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html


http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

 

The Dead Sea Scrolls, which date back to the events described in the New Testament, have added to our understanding of the Jewish background of Christianity. Scholars have pointed to similarities between beliefs and practices outlined in the Qumran literature and those of early Christians. These parallels include comparable rituals of baptism, communal meals, and property. Most interesting is the parallel organizational structures: the sectarians divided themselves into twelve tribes led by twelve chiefs, similar to the structure of the early Church, with twelve apostles who, according to Jesus, would to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Many scholars believe that both the literature of Qumran and the early Christian teachings stem from a common stream within Judaism and do not reflect a direct link between the Qumran community and the early Christians.

The Bible as we have it today is close to those scientifically proven manuscript that dates back HUNDREDS of years before Muhammad’s birth, 100’s of years! Show something that dates back that far that PROVES God’s word is corrupt! Even the Prophet knew not to go THERE!

They say Muhammad was illiterate, that doesn't have to apply in the year 2009, there is just to much proof for you!



Edited by Shibboleth - 19 September 2009 at 5:07pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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bullet Posted: 21 September 2009 at 11:34am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

But No where will you or anyone find Muhammad's name in the Bible.


Is'nt the name Ahmad in the Bible?Ahmad and Muhammad are the same name.
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bullet Posted: 21 September 2009 at 10:39pm

Dear Shibboleth

I'm not sure why you post the same things in two different posts, you'll probably get similar replies

Also, still waiting for your references of all these muslim scholars you mentioned that you claim that they confirm the bible to be un-altered

Originally posted by Shibboleth

The Dead Sea Scrolls authentication of the Holy Bible is the oldest manuscripts that CONFIRMS what we call the BIBLE (OT/NT) in it’s purest form today September 19, 2009.  

Over time, some 900 separate scrolls were found. They date from the third century BCE through the first century CE. My word just Google it, yall google everything else!

how you make such statements

the bible is mainly the old testament and new testament

Even if the dates you mention is valid and even if the dead sea facts you posted here
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html are true

it means the earliest reference we have of the old testament is written in the period of 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D ( this is what the reference you posted says , fact 13 )

This means it's written at least a thousand year after Moses ( PBUH ), if not, please tell us how much time is there between Moses and Jesus ( PBUH )

Do you expect a sane person to trust that scrolls written after a thousand year, ( with text that was not publicly and openly recited on daily basis like muslims do with the Qur'an ) , remained exactly the same ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Just sending a link or someone’s opinion on the subject just doesn’t cut it! Present facts not opinions! Can you find these links or statements at a museum, no! Do they date back before the time of Muhammad, no!


Actually using the facts you present is quite sufficient in proving our point

Originally posted by Shibboleth

You have proven again in your world, opinions are what matters not facts not real solid evidence.

I think it's best to not go on speaking like 'in your world'

It shall not get you anywhere, because there's so much that can be said about 'your world' as well, which I prefer to not speak of

Let's just stick to facts as you require, and to the basics of debating


Originally posted by Shibboleth

Go to the Qumran Library, the library of Congress, the British Museum, Israel Museum or Google it from the comfort of your home. That’s PROOF!

A proof of ? what is exactly the conclusion you're getting from scrolls that was written thousand year after it's source ?

a scrolls that you're not sure

Who wrote it
What's their ideology / motive
Which procedures they used to maintain integrity of what they're copying

What can you conclude out of this ?

[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Not links and debates, those are ONLY opinions, one-sided because I can’t ask them question etc…

So far all your questions had been answered, if not please post a list of the questions you have about the topic
I hope you provide answers to the several questions we ask, which you seem to not answer

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Read with an open mind **Pay specific attention to #10 and #25**

http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html


http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

 

Well , I did read it, I also read this link you posted

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22060312-2,00.html

It's interesting how it says

On hearing of the discovery yesterday, Geza Vermes, the eminent emeritus professor of Jewish studies at the University of Oxford, said such a discovery revealed that "the Biblical story is not altogether invented".

which is true, it's not altogether invented, it's part truth and part myth/alteration

Which is the islamic view point

Originally posted by Shibboleth

The Bible as we have it today is close to those scientifically proven manuscript that dates back HUNDREDS of years before Muhammad’s birth, 100’s of years!

Dear, the bible you have today is different from the bible that was available only 500 years ago, not to mention these scriptures

That said,  what is scientifically proven about these manuscripts ? that it was written over a thousand year after Moses ( PBUH ) ? that's an evidence against it, not the other way around

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Show something that dates back that far that PROVES God’s word is corrupt!

How about you show us something that dates only 300-400 years ago that's similar to what we have today ?

Even what we have today are different versions, which one should we use ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Even the Prophet knew not to go THERE!



This means you consider Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) to be a prophet from God ?

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bullet Posted: 22 September 2009 at 9:41pm
""""""How about you show us something that dates only 300-400 years ago that's similar to what we have today ?

Even what we have today are different versions, which one should we use ?"""""

All my post thus far have gone back 1000's of years, way before the KJV. The Bible I use has been translated from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. The context of the message is still the same.
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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bullet Posted: 24 September 2009 at 12:52am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

""""""How about you show us something that dates only 300-400 years ago that's similar to what we have today ?

Even what we have today are different versions, which one should we use ?"""""

All my post thus far have gone back 1000's of years, way before the KJV. The Bible I use has been translated from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. The context of the message is still the same.


Dear Shibboleth

What you posted so far for the scriptures of the old testament dates over a thousand ( 1000 ) year after it was revealed
What you posted for the scriptures of the new testament dates hundreds of years after it was revealed with no direct links

Translation directly from Aramic showed significant difference between KJV ( noohra foundation mentioned thousands of differences )

So what is your point ?

Also, still waiting for your references of all these muslim scholars you mentioned that you claim that they confirm the bible to be un-altered
And still waiting for answers to the questions above

Best Regards



Edited by Meditations - 24 September 2009 at 12:53am
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bullet Posted: 24 September 2009 at 6:18pm

 

As I posted before many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible      has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New
     Testament texts. 
 
     a.   Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
     b.   Amr al-Ghakhiz (869)     "    "    "    "
     c.   BUKHARI (810-870)            "    "    "    "
          (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam
          quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text
          of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
     d.   Al-Mas'udi (956)         "    "    "    "
     e.   Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina  (1037)"   "    "
     f.   AL-GHAZZALI (1111)        "    "    "    "
          (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-
          Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
     g.   Ibn-Khaldun (1406)       "    "    "    "    "    " 
          (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his
          teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic
          teachers.)
     h.   Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College
          "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that
          corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
     i.   Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew
          of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were
          suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil;
          but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it
          was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because
          those Scriptures were generally known and widely
          circulated, having been handed down from generation to
          generation."   

It's only you modern day 21st Century Muslims who believe otherwise,shame on YOU!
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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bullet Posted: 26 September 2009 at 2:15am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

 As I posted before many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible      has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New

     Testament texts. 


Dear Shibboleth
Do you read what we post, or just reply to what you want ?
I just posted above saying

Also, still waiting for your references of all these muslim scholars you mentioned that you claim that they confirm the bible to be un-altered

and you post the same list again with no references to your claim ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

 
     h.   Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College
          "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that
          corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
     i.   Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew
          of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were
          suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil;
          but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it
          was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because
          those Scriptures were generally known and widely
          circulated, having been handed down from generation to
          generation."



What is your reference to these quotes ? which books did they write this in ?
please check your sources before copying/pasting

I recall the Egyptian pope ( Pope Shenoda ) was once quoted about saying something similar about Imam Razi, when going back to the source, the Razi was saying totally the opposite
The pope ended up making a fool of himself
It's unfortunate for his holiness to be in such embarrassing situation


Originally posted by Shibboleth


It's only you modern day 21st Century Muslims who believe otherwise,shame on YOU!


So now this is a brand new thought that came up recently ?
This is the view held by muslims since the days of the Prophet ( PBUH )

Regards
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