IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?

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Sign*Reader

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Posted: 22 August 2009 at 10:42pm

Originally posted by Shibboleth

**Mohammed, himself, rejected all of these false genealogies, and he put limits regarding the genealogy of his ancestors. Regarding Mohammed’s own rejection of the false genealogies, Amru bin al-As wrote:

Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.”

By this, Mohammed confessed that neither he, nor anyone else, knew about his ancestors beyond al-Nather bin Kinaneh. Nather bin Kinaneh is the 17th ancestor in the genealogy which Mohammed recognized as true. Other narrations of the customs, or sayings, of Mohammed, called Hadiths, show Mohammed refused to be genealogized prior to Maad, معدwho some suggested, was the 4th ancestor prior to al-Nather bin Kinaneh.

What planet you live on?

May be you are another foot solder for another online missionary Sam Shamoun; who knows cuz this is an internet debate albeit running of special olympics...

You must provide all the references to your quote..
How Mhmd(s) could have genealogized himself when he being an unlettered person who couldn't read or write...

Where did you get this fabrication from anyways?

Why the heck you Christians or the Jews would be concerned about Ishmael or Issac for that matter when neither of your cults were even fabricated yet?
CUZ tell me what was the religion of Israel(Jacob/Yacub) if you are so darn smart
How can God bless any religion be named after men? Whether Buddha, Judah or Christ ect...Don't you have any sense...

Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 August 2009 at 1:40pm

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

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Shibboleth

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Posted: 23 August 2009 at 2:25pm

First and foremost; Islamic genealogies only began to appear in the 8th century A.D which endeavor to connect Mohammed with Ishmael. That’s waaaaaaaay after the ‘Messengers’ death. Am I correct so far?

Even the many versions of Hadith of Mohammed coming from the followers of Mohammed all report that Mohammed opposed to be genelogized until Ishmael, the information is their in your writings, just do a little some research.

You will see that all his closest contemporaries and followers considered the genealogies appearing at his time to be false. Among the people who reported Mohammed’s opposition to such genealogies were his wife, Aisheh, and his cousin, Ibn Abbas, one of the most important reporters of Mohammed’s Hadith.

Ibn Ishak went against what all these people had said by creating genealogies which connect the ancestors of Mohammed with Ishmael. Are you familiar with Ibn Ishak?

Ibn Ishak altered the genealogies listed by Moses in Genesis; he inserted Arabic names from his time and contradicted the history regarding Amalek and many others.

Please, I’m pleading with you! Is their any record between Mohammed and Ishmael which would support the Islamic claim that Mohammad is descended from Ishmael?

If not, then Ishmael received no spiritual call from God. ‘If’ he thus received no call from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would that then make him a false prophet?

Isn’t it interesting that not even ONE, not one of the historical twelve tribes of Ishmael make mention of a Mohammad?

What documents can any Muslim provide to support that the Bible was tampered with, which means then there would be an original document that says otherwise. "Show me the Doc"

Were there any witnesses around to support his ‘Revelation’ from the angel Gabriel?

My heart goes out to my Muslim friends who continue to trust their eternal destiny to a claim which is against logic, proof and history solely based on what was written years and years and years after the ‘Messengers death to make YOU dear reader a believer.

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)

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Meditations

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Posted: 23 August 2009 at 9:50pm

Originally posted by Shibboleth

What documents can any Muslim provide to support that the Bible was tampered with, which means then there would be an original document that says otherwise. "Show me the Doc"

Dear Shibboleth

Which source do you want this document to come from , that would be acceptable to you ?

Do you want it to come from historical facts ?
If so then get different copies from the bible throughout history , actually the past 200 years only is enough to show you the major changes that the bible went through

Do you want to come from God ?
If so, then it came with Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH )

I'd be interested to know which authority that you would accept as the source of this 'document' or evidence

That said , can you point us to the original source for the bible, which you think of as 'untampered with' ?

Will that be in hebrew, aramic or greek ?

is there's a copy of this bible that's been consistent for the past 500 years for instance ?

Regards

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Sign*Reader

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Posted: 23 August 2009 at 10:48pm

Shibboleth
Don't be a schmuck, answer my question first ....
I see me arguing with the wall might be more productive...
Why are so you acting a freaking retard telling us here that some how Mhmd's was averse to the genealogical art... His first Caliph Abu Bakr was a great genealogist of his time and you are taking his daughter Ayesha's name somehow to spread your moronity ...
When in reality they were the only ones in the world with a string of their lineage attached to their title due to the tribal rivalries ...It is the western issue these days that being a high percentage of illegitimate births don't know who the real father is?

Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 August 2009 at 11:44pm

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

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Shibboleth

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Posted: 23 August 2009 at 10:49pm

The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.

 Sura 6:34; 10:34 which is which?


Also, produce a book to show that the Bible was changed although translated in 1,500 languages.

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)

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Shibboleth

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Posted: 24 August 2009 at 12:23pm

Don’t waste your time writing back if you can’t produce any factual proof regarding the ‘messengers’ genealogy before his time or that the Bible been tampered with regarding Islam. Just show me something that has not been tampered with that support YOUR argument! Is that to much to ask. All astute readers are waiting patiently.

Because, anyone could claim to be sent of God. Moses and Christ proved it by the performance of many miracles, but where were Muhammad’s miracles? He confessed in the Quran to having none.—See Suras 2:118; 10:38; 11:13; 6:109, Ali.

Maybe he just forgot that he did and so his devote followers helped him remember and added them centuries later after his death.

That sounds suspect if you're honest with yourself.

P.S. At least answer the questions that were posted.

Which ONE of the historical twelve tribes of Ishmael made mention of a Mohammad or any Prophet?

What documents can any Muslim provide to support that the Bible was tampered with, which means then there would be an original document that says otherwise. "Show me the Doc"

Who witness the ‘messenger’ receiving the Revelation from the angel Gabriel?

Deuteronomy 19:15 “At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good” –That’s a Law of God.

“‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods (see post on who is Allah), that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah (YHWH) and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.”- Deuteronomy 18: 20-22

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)

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Hayfa
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Posted: 24 August 2009 at 8:00pm

sigh... Is there any point in responding..

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 24 August 2009 at 9:33pm

Shibboleth:

Show me the original document that states that God would be sending the scriptures of the Tanahk or Bible. The original document before the arrival of the scriptures, so that man would know that the Tanahk and Bible were from God, not from man.

Show me the genealogy of Jesus that proves he was anything other than a man and prophet. But first, show me which genealogy is the CORRECT genealogy of Jesus, then prove he was related in anyway to David, then prove he was divine.

Then show me the documents that explain how the Bible can have so many contradicting stories regarding the exact same events, starting with Genesis and ending with Revelation. But I ONLY want to see the original documents from God which give an explanantion as to why the contradictory versions exist and the point of the contradictions.

I don't want anything that was written by man. I want divine documentation to explain the inconsistencies and contradictions that exist within your scriptures.

If you can't come up with any of this documentation don't waste your time writing back.

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Topic: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?( Topic Closed)
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Author	Message
Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352	Posted: 22 August 2009 at 10:42pm
	*Originally posted by Shibboleth* Mohammed, himself, rejected all of these false genealogies, and he put limits regarding the genealogy of his ancestors. Regarding Mohammed’s own rejection of the false genealogies, Amru bin al-As wrote: Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.” By this, Mohammed confessed that neither he, nor anyone else, knew about his ancestors beyond al-Nather bin Kinaneh. Nather bin Kinaneh is the 17th ancestor in the genealogy which Mohammed recognized as true. Other narrations of the customs, or sayings, of Mohammed, called Hadiths, show Mohammed refused to be genealogized prior to Maad, معدwho some suggested, was the 4th ancestor prior to al-Nather bin Kinaneh. What planet you live on? May be you are another foot solder for another online missionary Sam Shamoun*; who knows cuz this is an internet debate albeit running of special olympics... You must provide all the references to your quote.. How Mhmd(s) could have genealogized himself when he being an unlettered person who couldn't read or write... Where did you get this fabrication from anyways? Why the heck you Christians or the Jews would be concerned about Ishmael or Issac for that matter when neither of your cults were even fabricated yet? CUZ tell me what was the religion of Israel(Jacob/Yacub) if you are so darn smart How can God bless any religion be named after men? Whether Buddha, Judah or Christ ect...Don't you have any sense... Edited by SignReader - 23 August 2009 at 1:40pm
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
	IP Logged

Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 23 August 2009 at 2:25pm
	First and foremost; Islamic genealogies only began to appear in the 8th century A.D which endeavor to connect Mohammed with Ishmael. That’s waaaaaaaay after the ‘Messengers’ death. Am I correct so far? Even the many versions of Hadith of Mohammed coming from the followers of Mohammed all report that Mohammed opposed to be genelogized until Ishmael, the information is their in your writings, just do a little some research. You will see that all his closest contemporaries and followers considered the genealogies appearing at his time to be false. Among the people who reported Mohammed’s opposition to such genealogies were his wife, Aisheh, and his cousin, Ibn Abbas, one of the most important reporters of Mohammed’s Hadith. Ibn Ishak went against what all these people had said by creating genealogies which connect the ancestors of Mohammed with Ishmael. Are you familiar with Ibn Ishak? Ibn Ishak altered the genealogies listed by Moses in Genesis; he inserted Arabic names from his time and contradicted the history regarding Amalek and many others. *Please, I’m pleading with you! Is their any record between Mohammed and Ishmael which would support the Islamic claim that Mohammad is descended from Ishmael*? If not, then Ishmael received no spiritual call from God. ‘If’ he thus received no call from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would that then make him a false prophet? Isn’t it interesting that not even ONE, not one of the historical twelve tribes of Ishmael make mention of a Mohammad? What documents can any Muslim provide to support that the Bible was tampered with, which means then there would be an original document that says otherwise. "Show me the Doc" Were there any witnesses around to support his ‘Revelation’ from the angel Gabriel? My heart goes out to my Muslim friends who continue to trust their eternal destiny to a claim which is against logic, proof and history solely based on what was written years and years and years after the ‘Messengers death to make YOU dear reader a believer.
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Meditations Senior Member Joined: 16 November 2002 Online Status: Offline Posts: 239	Posted: 23 August 2009 at 9:50pm
	*Originally posted by Shibboleth* What documents can any Muslim provide to support that the Bible was tampered with, which means then there would be an original document that says otherwise. "Show me the Doc" Dear Shibboleth Which source do you want this document to come from , that would be acceptable to you ? Do you want it to come from historical facts ? If so then get different copies from the bible throughout history , actually the past 200 years only is enough to show you the major changes that the bible went through Do you want to come from God ? If so, then it came with Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) I'd be interested to know which authority that you would accept as the source of this 'document' or evidence That said , can you point us to the original source for the bible, which you think of as 'untampered with' ? Will that be in hebrew, aramic or greek ? is there's a copy of this bible that's been consistent for the past 500 years for instance ? Regards
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Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352	Posted: 23 August 2009 at 10:48pm
	Shibboleth Don't be a schmuck, answer my question first .... I see me arguing with the wall might be more productive... Why are so you acting a freaking retard telling us here that some how Mhmd's was averse to the genealogical art... His first Caliph Abu Bakr was a great genealogist of his time and you are taking his daughter Ayesha's name somehow to spread your moronity ... When in reality they were the only ones in the world with a string of their lineage attached to their title due to the tribal rivalries ...It is the western issue these days that being a high percentage of illegitimate births don't know who the real father is? Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 August 2009 at 11:44pm
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
	IP Logged

Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 23 August 2009 at 10:49pm
	The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God. Sura 6:34; 10:34 which is which? Also, produce a book to show that the Bible was changed although translated in 1,500 languages.
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 24 August 2009 at 12:23pm
	Don’t waste your time writing back if you can’t produce any factual proof regarding the ‘messengers’ genealogy before his time or that the Bible been tampered with regarding Islam. Just show me something that has not been tampered with that support YOUR argument! Is that to much to ask. All astute readers are waiting patiently. Because, anyone could claim to be sent of God. Moses and Christ proved it by the performance of many miracles, but where were Muhammad’s miracles? He confessed in the Quran to having none.—See Suras 2:118; 10:38; 11:13; 6:109, Ali. Maybe he just forgot that he did and so his devote followers helped him remember and added them centuries later after his death. That sounds suspect if you're honest with yourself. P.S. At least answer the questions that were posted. Which ONE of the historical twelve tribes of Ishmael made mention of a Mohammad or any Prophet? What documents can any Muslim provide to support that the Bible was tampered with, which means then there would be an original document that says otherwise. "Show me the Doc" Who witness the ‘messenger’ receiving the Revelation from the angel Gabriel? Deuteronomy 19:15 “At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good” –That’s a Law of God. “‘However, the *prophet* who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other *gods* (see post on who is Allah), that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah (YHWH) and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.”- Deuteronomy 18: 20-22
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 24 August 2009 at 8:00pm
	sigh... Is there any point in responding..
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 24 August 2009 at 9:33pm
	Shibboleth: Show me the original document that states that God would be sending the scriptures of the Tanahk or Bible. The original document before the arrival of the scriptures, so that man would know that the Tanahk and Bible were from God, not from man. Show me the genealogy of Jesus that proves he was anything other than a man and prophet. But first, show me which genealogy is the CORRECT genealogy of Jesus, then prove he was related in anyway to David, then prove he was divine. Then show me the documents that explain how the Bible can have so many contradicting stories regarding the exact same events, starting with Genesis and ending with Revelation. But I ONLY want to see the original documents from God which give an explanantion as to why the contradictory versions exist and the point of the contradictions. I don't want anything that was written by man. I want divine documentation to explain the inconsistencies and contradictions that exist within your scriptures. If you can't come up with any of this documentation don't waste your time writing back.
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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