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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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martha
 
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bullet Posted: 16 August 2009 at 3:02pm
Hmm...there was only one Adam and Eve....so IMHO we are all related to eachother.
Has anyone traced their family tree back to Adam yet? lol
All this to and fro-ing, lol, and we are all brothers and sisters together!!Isnt that WONDERFUL!!!
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Hayfa
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bullet Posted: 17 August 2009 at 4:00am
"I follow Jehovah, God of the most high" I did not know there was a god for the most high, most high...on drugs?? just wondering.

LoL

I agree Martha. And a geneologist has mapped all people back to the people of the Kalahari dessert in South Africa area. It was amazing. 


When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Shibboleth
 
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bullet Posted: 17 August 2009 at 11:20am

"Of course not confusing for the people who are drunkards, dope heads and consumers of everything unlawful by the real God's laws and also want a free ride to paradise in the heavens... In my book if Jesus was son of god he has no genealogy....PeriodThis explanation just doesn't make sense...
Luke  & Matthews were just not smart enough to realize what they were doing...

IMHO Jehovah's witness like you not even qualified to discuss these things"


Sign *Reader, I suspect you’re not an Imam which is ok, I'm sure you would love to be one day but you’re a very contentious Muslim. "Pride comes before a crash" You have little understanding of the Quran and no understanding of the Holy Scriptures.

Children of Israel. . . Have faith in My revelations, which confirm your Scriptures.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 41) “A Book confirming their own has come to them from Allah.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 89) “When it is said to them: ‘Believe in what Allah has revealed,’ they reply: ‘We believe in what was revealed to us.’ But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is the truth, corroborating their own scriptures.” (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 91) “He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of men, and the distinction between right and wrong.” (Sura 3, Al-Imran [The Imrans], verses 3, 4) “This is a blessed Book which We have revealed, confirming what came before it.” (Sura 6, Al-An‛am [Cattle], verse 92) “If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) “What We have revealed to you in the Book is the truth confirming previous scriptures.”—Sura 35, Al-Fatir [The Creator], verse 31.

The Qur’an teaches that these three writings, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel (Injeel) are from God (that's not me saying it)  if they weren’t you wouldn’t even have the Quran. If you disagree, it’s all good. Agree to disagree but don’t set the pace of resorting to offensive words “senior member” it’s a terrible example.

Say, "We believe in Allah and what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma’il (Ishmael) and Ishaq (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob) and the Tribes, and what Musa (Moses) and ‘Isa (Jesus) and all the Prophets were given by their Lord. We do not differentiate between any of them..." (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85



Edited by Shibboleth - 17 August 2009 at 11:33am
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Shibboleth
 
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bullet Posted: 17 August 2009 at 11:45am
You mean the genealogy fabricated by Ibn-Ishak that contradicts the sayings of Mohammed, who expressed his ignorance about his ancestors prior to his 17th ancestor?

**Ibn Ishak was considered by the Muslim scholars of his time as being guilty of forgery and fabricating false genealogies**

What genealogist are you referring to?
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 19 August 2009 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth


Sign *Reader, I suspect you’re not an Imam which is ok, I'm sure you would love to be one day but you’re a very contentious Muslim. "Pride comes before a crash" You have little understanding of the Quran and no understanding of the Holy Scriptures.


Duh
Of course it is mandatory on the part of the Muslim's to believe in the chain of Allah's messengers who were deputed to his work on earth...

Why are you quoting from Quran to tell us what is what in Quran...It you who is contentious in  compounding the issue and telling me exactly the Quran warns about people like you...I know few Jehovah's witnesses would knock at my door and be totally lost when they were told the truth...
But that is OK I can live with people like you quite easily cuz I know in there is something missing from the Judeo Xtian mind about that will only believe tangible god ...
Wherever Allah revealed to Prophet Mmhd about the scripture btw which originally were in oral form mostly but available to a very limited folks in written form were extrapolations about truths...If challenged the truth could be rectified as Prophet Mhmd used do in Jews and Christians cases by listening on their scriptures and then rendering judgments by correcting interpolations to their surprises and some would see the light and become the witnesses of the Allah's and his messenger...

Here is a passage on these things from the Jewish revert Muslim Mhmd Asd commentary what I am saying..........................  
Note 64 (Quran Ref: 5:48 )

The participle muhaymin is derived from the quadriliteral verb haymana, "he watched [over a thing]" or "controlled [it]", and is used here to describe the Qur'an as the determinant factor in deciding what is genuine and what is false in the earlier scriptures (see Manar VI, 410 ff.).(Quran Ref: 5:48 )





Edited by Sign*Reader - 19 August 2009 at 10:18pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 19 August 2009 at 10:16pm
Shibboleth
In the world of manufacturing where some level of integrity is required there is process called quality assurance; when a negligent worker produces a bad lot it is job of the inspector to catch the lot before it goes into the product and shipped to the unsuspecting customer..if the inspection or quality system is lacking the customer can get hurt depending upon the product may also lose life or limb...If the bad lot is caught in time some time it is sorted against the go & no gauge as specified by the designer of the product...Some parts are saved and others scrapped...but at times the statistical analysis renders the whole lot useless and is scrapped...When that happens too often the whole company goes bankrupt...Did you get the drift as is happening to lot of American companies...Now this is the material world but it is same about what is called scriptures being extrapolated for sake of money and material...

As Allah revealed
9:34 (Asad) O you who have attained to faith! Behold, many of the rabbis and monks do indeed wrongfully devour men's possessions and turn [others] away from the path of God. But as for all who lay up treasures of gold and silver and do not spend them for the sake of Gods Asad(9,51)[51] - give them the tiding of grievous suffering [in the life to come]:

 Ahmed Deedat has a book online about the rectification process; It will be too much to copy and pasting the whole thing...so if you have time go there and then tell me if you still have questions...
http://ia310839.us.archive.org/3/items/Shk_Ahmed_Deedats_Books/Is_The_Bible_Gods_Word.pdf


Edited by Sign*Reader - 19 August 2009 at 10:45pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Shibboleth
 
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bullet Posted: 20 August 2009 at 11:28am

 

Ok, you’re waaaaaay-OFF the subject. FIRST: Remember what was posted. Second: The Quran declares the Bible to be a true revelation of God and demands faith in the Bible. (Open n Shut case)

 

Because YOU or OTHERS have NO divine knowledge or understanding of the scriptures and misapply the TEXT doesn’t mean the Bible is wrong, you have to do better then that.

- Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11

 

 The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God. 
 Sura 6:34; 10:34 

 

All these above texts presuppose the availability of the true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad's day.
 -Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71
        
A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46
 
The Quran makes no distinction between God's revelations
Sura 2:136 
 
Perhaps you believe in some of the Quran like you believe in some of the Bible to support your beliefs. 
 
Either you believe in “The Book” or you don’t.

 

If you truly believe in what you’ve been taught it’s on you. But please my Brother do not go by here-say or emotions, go by the FACTS!  
 
Bottom line however is this, the Bible and the Quran do not agree.
 
The Bible and the Quran differ widely on fundamental concepts of faith and practice.
 

However, Do you know who Ibn-Khazem is? http://inthenameofallah.org/Biblical%20Corruption%20Allegations.html

 

Many other exegetes, did not accept or agree with his conclusions among whom are many of the luminaries of 'Islam' such as:

 

1. Ali al Tabari (d 855) who accepted the Gospel texts

 

2. Al Bukhari (810-870)

 

3. Al Mas'udi (956)

 

4. Abu Ali husain bin Sina (1037)

 

5. Al Ghazali (1111) who did not accept his teachings

 

6. Ibn Khaldun (1406) ditto.

 

 

In reality it is not up to the People of the Book to prove their Book is uncorrupted but up to the Muhammadans to do so based on any 'original' book that would show these corruptions.  Sign *Reader, can you or ANY Muslim present even one book? I think not

 

The interpreters of the Quran repeatedly denigrate and accuse both the Jews and Christians of having tampered with and  or 'corrupted' their Holy Books to suit their - with as yet unexplained and unidentified - nefarious purposes.

 

No where does the Quran EVER imply that the TEXTS of the Scriptures of the People pf the Book had been tampered with or CORRUPTED.

 

Only man with their own interpretation be he Jew, Christian or Muslim.

Remember it was only a man who said he received the revelation from an angel and was told to Read, Recite, Relay, who REALLY knows.

 

But ANYONE who reads this post! Think about any man who received a revelation, be it Moses, Jesus or Muhammad, what manifestations came with it?  

 

1 John 4:1-3: “Test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. You gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God.”

 

 

So, any alleged corruptions that happened would have happened AFTER the Quranic 'revelations'. If so, then the Muhammadan accusers have an unenviable intellectual, theological and historical MAGICAL ACT to perform:

 

They have to prove the most STUPENDOUS and massive literary editing ever performed in the history of humanity; that the Jews and Christians were able to ALTER the TEXTS of EVERY single Book of theirs all over the world, in EVERY COUNTRY, in all the languages that the Bible was written in, with the consent, agreement and collusion of all the Jewish Rabbis as well as all the Christian priests, without leaving a copy of any ORIGINAL BIBLE.

 

Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New Testament texts.
 
     a.   Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
     b.   Amr al-Ghakhiz (869)     "    "    "    "
     c.   BUKHARI (810-870)        "    "    "    "
          (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
     d.   Al-Mas'udi (956)         "    "    "    "
     e.   Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina  (1037)"   "    "
     f.   AL-GHAZZALI (1111)       "    "    "    "
          (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
     g.   Ibn-Khaldun (1406)       "    "    "    "    "    " he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)
     h.   Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."

     i.   Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed,

 

In conclusion, I leave you with this very well known scripture in the Islamic world ………

 

Deut. 18:18-20: “A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.” (Compare Jeremiah 14:14; 28:11, 15.)

 

Jesus said:  “I have come in the name of my Father.” (John 5:43)

 

**Matthew 6: 9 “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.

 

What name? The most widely known and accepted name of God threw out the world.

 

Psalms 83:18 says, that people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over ALL the earth.

 

Geneses 22:14 And Abraham began to call the name of that place Je·ho´vah-ji´reh. This is why it is customarily said today: “In the mountain of Jehovah it will be provided

\

However Jesus said: “He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory.”—John 7:18

 

 

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Natassia
 
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bullet Posted: 21 August 2009 at 12:50pm
I have read over this thread and I noticed that not a single Muslim could provide a valid source for the genealogy of Muhammad. 
 
I noticed someone copy-pasted something from a non-English Wikipedia site, however that site did not provide a source.
 
A list of names means nothing considering it could have been fabricated hundreds of years after Muhammad's death.
 
I also noticed that instead of responding to Shibboleth's questions, they diverted the topic onto the genealogy of Christ and some nonsense about an American politician.
 
And then I read that it is supposed to be common knowledge that the Arabs are descended from Ishmael.
 
What utter nonsense.  Such an idea is likely derived from the Book of Jubilees and the writings of Josephus, both of which were 2000 years (at least) after the death of Ishmael.
 
There is no anthropological, historical, archaelogical, etc. proof that Arabs are descendents of Ishmael.  Everything is conjecture.
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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