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Message Icon Topic: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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bullet Posted: 10 August 2009 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi


Ibrahim bin Azar (Prophet Ibrahim



Dear Nur_Ilahi

It's a side topic not related to the main one, I can open a new thread for it if you wish
it's a misconception that azar is the father of Prophet Ibrahim , he was not
he was his uncle who raised him

I tried to edit the wikipedia link you sent , but I'm not sure which language is this

AsSalam Alaykoum
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bullet Posted: 10 August 2009 at 5:41pm

Any man can say he comes from an important family from long ago but to say he is a messenger of God proof MUST be shown. You say Muhammad is such a man and I respect your belief, we can agree to disagree. But to say that Mohammed carried a prophetic role and the Quran is God’s word, at least one should be able to a reasonable degree show proof of his role not just quotes from the book or the person that’s in question.

Muslims say there are scriptures from the Bible that supports Islam/Mohammad. Muslims/Quran says Mohammad is the last prophet, this is your belief.

However, Revelation 22:18, 19 of the last book of God’s Holy Writings says this hundreds of years before the Quran was writing;

18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

Any man of God would question its authority.  

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bullet Posted: 10 August 2009 at 6:12pm

Mohammed, himself, rejected all of these false genealogies, and he put limits regarding the genealogy of his ancestors. Regarding Mohammed’s own rejection of the false genealogies, Amru bin al-As wrote:

Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.

By this, Mohammed confessed that neither he, nor anyone else, knew about his ancestors beyond al-Nather bin Kinaneh. Nather bin Kinaneh is the 17th ancestor in the genealogy which Mohammed recognized as true. Other narrations of the customs, or sayings, of Mohammed, called Hadiths, show Mohammed refused to be genealogized prior to Maad,  معدwho some suggested, was the 4th ancestor prior to al-Nather bin Kinaneh

Muslims would like to connect Mohammad to Ishmael to prove he was a prophet but it's IMPOSSIBLE, he wasn't, people just believe what they hear without truly doing the research.

***Ancestry is very important, if you want the truth***

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bullet Posted: 10 August 2009 at 7:21pm
After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.

If, at the time these words were written, the Bible had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel ‘judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein’?

Thus believers in the Qur’an accept that the Bible was Uncorrupted at the time the Qur’an was written, Genealogy and all! (about one thousand three hundred years ago). On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today.

Next.


Edited by Shibboleth - 10 August 2009 at 7:23pm
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bullet Posted: 10 August 2009 at 8:31pm
FYi...
You said "The two genealogies contained in Matthew's and Luke's Gospels give rise to problems of verisimilitude, and conformity with scientific data, and hence authenticity"

Now let me teach you and do listen intently!

The difference in all the names in Luke’s genealogy of Jesus as compared with Matthew’s is quickly resolved in the fact that Luke traced the line through David’s son Nathan, instead of Solomon as did Matthew. (Lu 3:31; Mt 1:6, 7) It's there for people who want to know!

Luke evidently follows the ancestry of Mary, thus showing Jesus’ natural descent from David, while Matthew shows Jesus’ legal right to the throne of David by descent from Solomon through Joseph, who was legally Jesus’ father.

Both Matthew and Luke signify that Joseph was not Jesus’ actual father but only his adoptive father, giving him legal right. Matthew departs from the style used throughout his genealogy when he comes to Jesus, saying: “Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.” (Mt 1:16) Notice that he does not say ‘Joseph became father to Jesus’ but that he was “the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born.” Luke is even more pointed when, after showing earlier that Jesus was actually the Son of God by Mary (Lu 1:32-35), he says: “Jesus . . . being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heli.”—Lu 3:23.
Still with me?

Since Jesus was not the natural son of Joseph but was the Son of God, Luke’s genealogy of Jesus would prove that he was, by human birth, a son of David through his natural mother Mary.


***NOT CONFUSING AT ALL***

In CONCLUSION, the two lists of Matthew and Luke fuse together the two truths, namely, (1) that Jesus was actually the Son of God and the natural heir to the Kingdom by miraculous birth through the virgin girl Mary, of David’s line, and (2) that Jesus was also the legal heir in the male line of descent from David and Solomon through his adoptive father Joseph. (Lu 1:32, 35; Ro 1:1-4)

NO WONDER THE QURAN ACCEPTS JESUS CHRIST, IT WAS IRREFUTABLE BACK THEN AND IT IS NOW!

The angels announced good news from God to Mary. She would give birth to Jesus.—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:45.

♦ God taught him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injīl.Āl ‘Imrān [3]:48. 

God caused Christ to die, raised him to life, and then lifted him up to Him.—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:55, NJD; Maryam [19]:33, NJD.

One Ḥadīth says that Christ is the only one that Satan did not touch: “When any human being is born, Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed.”—The Book of the Beginning of Creation from Ṣaḥīḥ Al-Bukhārī.

And Dear Readers of the Quran; Adam was called a son of God because his life came from God without human parents. Similarly, Jesus Christ is called the son of God, for his life came directly from God. We read in the Qur’ān: “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was.”—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.

YES! He was more the just a prophet. He was the son of GOD! If the Quran was going to talk of such a GREAT man as Jesus, at least the one  coming after him should have done greater works then he.


The Quran would not promote such a LIE, a man who had no reliable ancestry, a man who done better works then ALL the prophets put together.

Well let me put your mind at ease, the BIBLE God's Holy Writings does not either!

I follow Jehovah, God of the most high.

*Psalms 83:18*

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth"

 




Edited by Shibboleth - 10 August 2009 at 8:34pm
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Akhe Abdullah
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bullet Posted: 11 August 2009 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi


Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Salams,Nur.Correct me if im wrong but I use to think that it was common Knowledge that everyone in the Middle Eastern Region at lest back then are or were descendents of Ishmail or Jacob(i.e Arabs and Jews)
Salamalaikum Akhe,As you can see from the graphic at the link I posted, most of the descendents of the Middle Eastern people are the descendents of Ismail and Ishaq, the two prophets, sons of Prophet Ibrahim. What modern terminology considered as Semitic People. These Prophets as stated in the Quran worshipped One True God, The Creator of the whole universe. However some had deviated from the True Teachings of God and as a Sign of God's Mercy, He had sent numerous Prophets in their midst as a reminder to worship The One True God. Allah Al-Aleem 'preserved' the seed of Muhammad in the lineage of Ismail and sent these people in the barren deserts of Makkah, away from the stubborn and devious people of the Jewish tribe. But whatever it is, in Islam, Allah do not look at race, colours or status. Because all these will be left behind in this world when we die. But the one that is eternal is our Souls/Spirits. The Inner Being that is in us that need to be purified before we meet the Purest of All that is Allah Al-Quddus - The Purest. And the basic purification of the Souls/Spirits is to acknowledge that there is no other Being or God worthy of being worshipped but ALLAH and that Muhammad is His Messenger - The Best example of a human being.Simple but Precise.
Salams,Nur.Shukran
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bullet Posted: 14 August 2009 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth


Now let me teach you and do listen intently!

The difference in all the names in Luke’s genealogy of Jesus as compared with Matthew’s is quickly resolved in the fact that Luke traced the line through David’s son Nathan, instead of Solomon as did Matthew. (Lu 3:31; Mt 1:6, 7) It's there for people who want to know!

Luke evidently follows the ancestry of Mary, thus showing Jesus’ natural descent from David, while Matthew shows Jesus’ legal right to the throne of David by descent from Solomon through Joseph, who was legally Jesus’ father.

Both Matthew and Luke signify that Joseph was not Jesus’ actual father but only his adoptive father, giving him legal right. Matthew departs from the style used throughout his genealogy when he comes to Jesus, saying: “Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.” (Mt 1:16) Notice that he does not say ‘Joseph became father to Jesus’ but that he was “the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born.” Luke is even more pointed when, after showing earlier that Jesus was actually the Son of God by Mary (Lu 1:32-35), he says: “Jesus . . . being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heli.”—Lu 3:23.
Still with me?

Since Jesus was not the natural son of Joseph but was the Son of God, Luke’s genealogy of Jesus would prove that he was, by human birth, a son of David through his natural mother Mary.


 ***NOT CONFUSING AT ALL***


 In CONCLUSION, the two lists of Matthew and Luke fuse together the two truths, namely, (1) that Jesus was actually the Son of God and the natural heir to the Kingdom by miraculous birth through the virgin girl Mary, of David’s line, and (2) that Jesus was also the legal heir in the male line of descent from David and Solomon through his adoptive father Joseph. (Lu 1:32, 35; Ro 1:1-4)

NO WONDER THE QURAN ACCEPTS JESUS CHRIST, IT WAS IRREFUTABLE BACK THEN AND IT IS NOW!




Of course not confusing for the people who are drunkards, dope heads and consumers of everything unlawful by the real God's laws and also want a free ride to paradise in the heavens... In my book if Jesus was son of god he has no genealogy....PeriodThis explanation just doesn't make sense...
Luke  & Matthews were just not smart enough to realize what they were doing...

IMHO Jehovah's witness like you not even qualified to discuss these things..
The part Quran accepted was not what we are discussing here for your information...





Edited by Sign*Reader - 14 August 2009 at 6:56pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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bullet Posted: 15 August 2009 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

FYi...
You said "The two genealogies contained in Matthew's and Luke's Gospels give rise to problems of verisimilitude, and conformity with scientific data, and hence authenticity"

Now let me teach you and do listen intently!

The difference in all the names in Luke’s genealogy of Jesus as compared with Matthew’s is quickly resolved in the fact that Luke traced the line through David’s son Nathan, instead of Solomon as did Matthew. (Lu 3:31; Mt 1:6, 7) It's there for people who want to know!

Luke evidently follows the ancestry of Mary, thus showing Jesus’ natural descent from David, while Matthew shows Jesus’ legal right to the throne of David by descent from Solomon through Joseph, who was legally Jesus’ father.

Both Matthew and Luke signify that Joseph was not Jesus’ actual father but only his adoptive father, giving him legal right. Matthew departs from the style used throughout his genealogy when he comes to Jesus, saying: “Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.” (Mt 1:16) Notice that he does not say ‘Joseph became father to Jesus’ but that he was “the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born.” Luke is even more pointed when, after showing earlier that Jesus was actually the Son of God by Mary (Lu 1:32-35), he says: “Jesus . . . being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heli.”—Lu 3:23.
Still with me?

Since Jesus was not the natural son of Joseph but was the Son of God, Luke’s genealogy of Jesus would prove that he was, by human birth, a son of David through his natural mother Mary.


***NOT CONFUSING AT ALL***

In CONCLUSION, the two lists of Matthew and Luke fuse together the two truths, namely, (1) that Jesus was actually the Son of God and the natural heir to the Kingdom by miraculous birth through the virgin girl Mary, of David’s line, and (2) that Jesus was also the legal heir in the male line of descent from David and Solomon through his adoptive father Joseph. (Lu 1:32, 35; Ro 1:1-4)

NO WONDER THE QURAN ACCEPTS JESUS CHRIST, IT WAS IRREFUTABLE BACK THEN AND IT IS NOW!

The angels announced good news from God to Mary. She would give birth to Jesus.—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:45.

♦ God taught him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injīl.Āl ‘Imrān [3]:48. 

God caused Christ to die, raised him to life, and then lifted him up to Him.—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:55, NJD; Maryam [19]:33, NJD.

One Ḥadīth says that Christ is the only one that Satan did not touch: “When any human being is born, Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed.”—The Book of the Beginning of Creation from Ṣaḥīḥ Al-Bukhārī.

And Dear Readers of the Quran; Adam was called a son of God because his life came from God without human parents. Similarly, Jesus Christ is called the son of God, for his life came directly from God. We read in the Qur’ān: “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was.”—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.

YES! He was more the just a prophet. He was the son of GOD! If the Quran was going to talk of such a GREAT man as Jesus, at least the one  coming after him should have done greater works then he.


The Quran would not promote such a LIE, a man who had no reliable ancestry, a man who done better works then ALL the prophets put together.

Well let me put your mind at ease, the BIBLE God's Holy Writings does not either!

I follow Jehovah, God of the most high.

*Psalms 83:18*

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth"

 


 
Dear Shibbo,
there is an old saying, one mistake leasds to many mistakes, one lie leads to many lies.  There are just too many issues with what you have written above.
First the last: you wrote: "I follow Jehovah, God of the most high" I did not know there was a god for the most high, most high...on drugs?? just wondering. Or you simply meant, 'the God Most High.'
 
You wrote: "Jesus was actually the Son of God by Mary" that is like saying: Chelsea is actually daughter of Bill though Hillary" right. That make Hillary wife of Bill. Now we apply that to what you have said, and according to you Mary is wife of your god, right? big problem with that, its simply monstrasity. If someone has a wife, a son or a daughter, or have a son through a human mother then its not God we are talking about.
 
The geneology of Jesus in Matthew and Luke is inconsistant, period. Both are tracing through Joseph, but one has got it wrong, or even both.
 
I would say there is nothing more beneficial then teaching one's self to only submit to the truth and teach it to others. You mislead yourself, you fall, you mislead others as well, your burdon is increased many folds when you fall. But I guess we are all free, to choose.
 
May God of Jesus, David, Moses, Abraham and Mohammed (pbut) guide us all to nothing less than the truth, Ameen.
"There is none other worthy of Worship but (your Creator), God Almighty.  Mohammed (pbuh) is His servent and Messenger."
 
Hasan
 
 


Edited by honeto - 15 August 2009 at 3:37pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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