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Message Icon Topic: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Shibboleth
 
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bullet Topic: IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?
    Posted: 06 August 2009 at 7:45pm
Muslims believe that Mohammed is a descendant of Ishmael, that's a very serious claim. Where can I find that information?

What proof is there that the ancestors of Mohammed were really the descendants of Ishmael?

***Except for the lineage of Jesus, which was documented by written books of the Holy Bible through the centuries, no other family in history has ever accounted for their ancestors over a period of 2,000 years.***

The genealogy fabricated by Ibn-Ishak contradicts the sayings of Mohammed, who expressed his ignorance about his ancestors prior to his 17th ancestor.

Ibn Ishak was considered by the Muslim scholars of his time as being guilty of forgery and fabricating false genealogies


**Mohammed, himself, rejected all of these false genealogies, and he put limits regarding the genealogy of his ancestors. Regarding Mohammed’s own rejection of the false genealogies, Amru bin al-As wrote:

Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.

By this, Mohammed confessed that neither he, nor anyone else, knew about his ancestors beyond al-Nather bin Kinaneh. Nather bin Kinaneh is the 17th ancestor in the genealogy which Mohammed recognized as true. Other narrations of the customs, or sayings, of Mohammed, called Hadiths, show Mohammed refused to be genealogized prior to Maad,  معدwho some suggested, was the 4th ancestor prior to al-Nather bin Kinaneh.


Remember, Islamic genealogies only began to appear in the 8th century A.D which endeavor to connect Mohammed with Ishmael. That’s waaaaaaaay after the ‘Messengers’ death.  

His closest contemporaries and followers considered the genealogies appearing at his time to be false. Among the people who reported Mohammed’s opposition to such genealogies were his wife, Aisheh, and his cousin, Ibn Abbas, one of the most important reporters of Mohammed’s Hadith.

Ibn Ishak altered the genealogies listed by Moses in Genesis; he inserted Arabic names from his time and contradicted the history regarding Amalek and many others.

Is their at least ONE record between Mohammed and Ishmael which would support the Islamic claim that Mohammed is descended from Ishmael?

If not, then Ishmael received no spiritual call from God. ‘If’ he thus received no call from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would that then make him a false prophet? 

Isn’t it interesting that not even ONE, not one of the historical twelve tribes of Ishmael make mention of a Mohammad let alone a prophet, a VERY  important "Prophet" unlike ant other.

What documents can any Muslim provide to support that the Bible was tampered with, which means then there would be an original document that says otherwise.

Were there any witnesses around to support his ‘Revelation’ from the angel Gabriel?

My heart goes out to my Muslim friends who continue to trust their eternal destiny to a claim which is against logic, proof and history solely based on what was written years and years and years after the ‘Messengers death to make YOU dear reader a believer.

 

 

 







Edited by Shibboleth - 23 August 2009 at 2:32pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Akhe Abdullah
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bullet Posted: 07 August 2009 at 5:34am
Twelve sons were born to Isma'il from his marriage with the Jurhum girl.These were the ancestors of the twelve tribes of Arabized or Northern Arabs.On their mother's side there were related through Jurhum to the Arabizing Arabs,the sons of Ya'rub ibn Qahtan.They were also related to Egypt through their grandmother on their fatherside,Hagar,which was a close relation indeed.Through their grandfather Ibrahim,they were related to 'Iraq and Palestine, his old and new abodes.Jews regarded themselves as descendants of Issac.
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Akhe Abdullah
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bullet Posted: 07 August 2009 at 5:47am
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Abraham:religion of] [Allah's attributes:Protector] [Allah's friendship (to the believers)] [Muhammad:nearest of kin to Abraham] [People of the Book:relationship to Muslims]


3:68 (Y. Ali) Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Messenger and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.
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Akhe Abdullah
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bullet Posted: 07 August 2009 at 5:52am
Prophet Ibrahim(As)is the father to all 3 of the great religions.He(As)and Prophet Adam(As)are our heavenly fathers.Prophet Adam(As)is the father of man kind.
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Shibboleth
 
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bullet Posted: 07 August 2009 at 2:43pm

First, let me say that I agree with your statements. But let me be more specific, what proof is there in the “Torah” the ”Psalms” and (or) the “Gospel”  that the ancestors of Mohammed were really the descendants of Ishmael? They confirmed “Jesus” ancestry, not Muhammad.   

When Moses, the first Bible writer and first prophet to be sent to the descendants of Jacob, went to Israel he was well fortified with miracles to prove his divine mission. See Exodus, chapter 4. Likewise, when Christ Jesus came, he performed so many miracles that all those who had not let themselves be blinded with selfishness had to admit that he was sent of God,—John 7:31; 10:37, 38; 14:11.

Anyone could claim to be sent of God. Moses and Christ proved it by the performance of many miracles, but where were Muhammad’s  miracles? He confessed in the Quran to having none.—See Suras 2:118; 10:38; 11:13; 6:109, Ali.

*I will get into the Alhadith or Hadis in another topic I will post.

Historians say that the family of Mohammed was a  family which lived in Saba-Yemen. In the 5th century A.D., Qusayy Bin Kilab, the 8th ancestor of Mohammed, gathered an alliance of many Yemeni families forming Quraish, the tribe from which Mohammed later came.  These families only came to occupy Mecca in the 5th century A.D. The city of Mecca was built by the tribe of Khuzaa'h in the 4th century A.D.

Mohammed’s family is not connected to any Ishmaelite tribe because Mohammed’s family didn’t leave Yemen until the 5th  century A.D., and that’s about  1,100 years  after the Ishmaelites disappeared.

The genealogy fabricated by Ibn-Ishak contradicts the sayings of Mohammed, who expressed his ignorance about his ancestors prior to his 17th ancestor. Ibn Ishak was considered by the Muslim scholars of his time as being guilty of forgery and fabricating false genealogies.

Long before Ibn Ishak, Muslims who lived in Mohammed’s own time also fabricated genealogies in an attempt to connect Mohammed to the descendants of Ishmael.  Mohammed, himself, rejected all of these false genealogies, and he put limits regarding the genealogy of his ancestors. Regarding Mohammed’s own rejection of the false genealogies, Amru bin al-As wrote:

Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.

By this, Mohammed confessed that neither he, nor anyone else, knew about his ancestors beyond al-Nather bin Kinaneh. Nather bin Kinaneh is the 17th ancestor in the genealogy which Mohammed recognized as true. Other narrations of the customs, or sayings, of Mohammed, called Hadiths, show Mohammed refused to be genealogized prior to Maad,  معدwho some suggested, was the 4th ancestor prior to al-Nather bin Kinaneh.

Many versions of Hadith of Mohammed coming from the followers of Mohammed all report that Mohammed opposed to be genelogized until Ishmael. All his closest contemporaries and followers considered the genealogies appearing at his time to be false. Among the people who reported Mohammed’s opposition to such genealogies were his wife, Aisheh, and his cousin, Ibn Abbas, one of the most important reporters of Mohammed’s Hadith.[iv]  Ibn Ishak went against what all these people had said by creating genealogies which connect the ancestors of Mohammed with Ishmael.

We urge Muslims to study history, and to compare the facts to what they have been told in the Qur’an and in Islamic tradition. The claims of Mohammed, the Qur’an and Islam are clearly unfounded. Even if such historical errors were accepted by the followers in Mohammed’s time, we now have so much more evidence which proves them in error. How can one embrace these enormous mistakes, when a simple study of history demonstrates how misinformed they are.

There is no evidence apart from the later Muslim traditions that Ishmael ever married a Jurhumite woman, the Torah indicates that he married an Egyptian. Muslims do accept the Torah. On the other hand the Hadith claims that after settling in Mecca Ishmael married twice, and both of his wives were of Arab descent. (Now you see why I must discuss the Hadith at another posting!)

If TRUTH is to be imparted please open your heart to these sincere sayings, because…..

I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

 “He that bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes; I am coming quickly.’”

“Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”-Revelation 22: 18-20

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bullet Posted: 07 August 2009 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

Muslims believe that Mohammed is a descendant of Ishmael, that's a very serious claim. Where can I find that information?

What proof is there that the ancestors of Mohammed were really the descendants of Ishmael?

***Except for the lineage of Jesus, which was documented by written books of the Holy Bible through the centuries, no other family in history has ever accounted for their ancestors over a period of 2,000 years.***





From http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salasilah_keturunan_Nabi_Muhammad_SAW

Nabi Muhammad s.a.w. (Muhammad bin Abdullah)
Abdullah bin Abdul Mutallib
Abdul Mutallib bin Hashim
Hashim bin Abdul Manaf
Abdul Manaf bin Qusai
Qusai bin Kilab
Kilab bin Murrah
Murrah bin Kaab
Kaab bin Luay
Luay bin Ghalib
Ghalib bin Fahr
Fahr bin Malik
Malik bin An-Nadr
An-Nadr bin Kinanah
Kinanah bin Khuzaimah
Khuzaimah bin Mudrikah
Mudrikah bin Elyas
Elyas bin Mudar
Mudar bin Nizar
Nizar bin Ma'ad
Ma'ad bin Adnan
Adnan bin Add
Add bin Humaisi
Humaisi bin Salaman
Salaman bin Aws
Aws bin Buz
Buz bin Qamwal
Qamwal bin Obai
Obai bin Awwam
Awwam bin Nashid
Nashid bin Haza
Haza bin Bildas
Bildas bin Yadlaf
Yadlaf bin Tabikh
Tabikh bin Jahim
Jahim bin Nahish
Nahish bin Makhi
Makhi bin Ayd
Ayd bin Abqar
Abqar bin Ubayd
Ubayd bin Ad-Daa
Ad-Daa bin Hamdan
Hamdan bin Sanbir
Sanbir bin YathRabi
YathRabi bin Yahzin
Yahzin bin Yalhan
Yalhan bin Arami
Arami bin Ayd
Ayd bin Deshan
Deshan bin Aisar/Aizar
Aisar bin Afnad
Afnad bin Aiham
Aiham bin Muksar
Muksar bin Nahith
Nahith bin Zarih
Zarih bin Sani
Sani bin Wazzi
Wazzi bin Adwa'
Adwa' bin Aram
Aram bin Haidir
Haidir bin Ismail (Son of Ismail also called Kedar in the Bible)
Ismail bin Ibrahim (Ishmael bin Abraham - Prophet Ismail)
Ibrahim bin Azar (Prophet Ibrahim

----------------

A more detailed graphic to the lineage of Prophet Muhammad please click this link.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/family_tree.htm


 




Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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bullet Posted: 07 August 2009 at 9:58pm
Please read my above post regarding what Mohammed himself said about his ancestry, as well as many versions of Hadith.

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Akhe Abdullah
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bullet Posted: 08 August 2009 at 1:37pm
As Salamu Alaikum, Nur.JazakAllah Kheiran for the link.He's been very buisy and you know how important it is for us to clear up these misconseptions they put out about our deen,I feel it's all of our duty because, it's very little that they can tell us about Christianity,no offense but,personally to me it's all about the dunya and western society and their politics more than religion some say to me I cant be Muslim because my family is Christian everybody I know are Christians. I cant wear hijab or kufi or throbes,or I like pork to much,Muslims cant drink or get high.every reason not to embrace Islam has to do with the dunya and its Western society,(The reason for me stating that personal opinion of mine) it comes from personal experience.Again no offense to any Christians.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 08 August 2009 at 2:19pm
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