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Quote Meditations Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2009 at 12:42pm

( As I mentioned earlier, I was traveling, I edited the post now to have the remaining of the reply, please re-read before replying )

Originally posted by Moses


Hi Moses

Originally posted by Moses

Although you are kind, I did not find my answers.

By God's will you will find your answers by me or someone else

I'm currently travelling, hence the slow replies

I also have asked several questions which it seems you didn't answer like :

1- So you believe Jesus is a Prophet , He's not a God, or Son of God ?

2- Since you're asking this question, do you believe that Qur'an is God's words then ?

and thus following the bible because you say the Qur'an asks believers to follow it ?

Now to your questions 

Originally posted by Moses

If the Bible was changed or corrupted in the time of Quran, why the Quran talks about that and ask the prophet to tell that for his people,


 قَالَ يَـٰمُوسَىٰٓ إِنِّى ٱصۡطَفَيۡتُكَ عَلَى ٱلنَّاسِ بِرِسَـٰلَـٰتِى وَبِكَلَـٰمِى فَخُذۡ مَآ ءَاتَيۡتُكَ وَكُن مِّنَ ٱلشَّـٰكِرِينَ (١٤٤) وَڪَتَبۡنَا لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡأَلۡوَاحِ مِن ڪُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ مَّوۡعِظَةً۬ وَتَفۡصِيلاً۬ لِّكُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ فَخُذۡهَا بِقُوَّةٍ۬ وَأۡمُرۡ قَوۡمَكَ يَأۡخُذُواْ بِأَحۡسَنِہَا‌ۚ سَأُوْرِيكُمۡ دَارَ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقِينَ (١٤٥) سَأَصۡرِفُ عَنۡ ءَايَـٰتِىَ ٱلَّذِينَ يَتَكَبَّرُونَ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ ڪُلَّ ءَايَةٍ۬ لَّا يُؤۡمِنُواْ بِہَا وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ سَبِيلَ ٱلرُّشۡدِ لَا يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلاً۬ وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ سَبِيلَ ٱلۡغَىِّ يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلاً۬‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ بِأَنَّہُمۡ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَٔايَـٰتِنَا وَكَانُواْ عَنۡہَا غَـٰفِلِينَ (١٤٦



He said: O Moses! I have preferred thee above mankind by My messages and by My speaking (unto thee). So hold that which I have given thee, and be among the thankful. (144) And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying to the Muhammad-s): Take the better therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers. (145) I shall turn away from My revelations those who magnify themselves wrongfully in the earth, and if they see each token believe it not, and if they see the way of righteousness choose it nor for (their) way, and if they see the way of error choose if for (their) way. That is because they deny Our revelations and are used to disregard them. (146)




If we want do not complicate anything we should accept that "All things” means all things!

And, taking the better needs to be something not better but "there is something" any way. Isn’t it?!

and you tell us that Bible is changed, and by this, as if you are about erasing the message of these verses from your mind and Muslim people`s mind! If disagree, tell me how you use this verses and what is the reason of Quran to talk about these things?!What is the message of these words for you? Knowing that there was something in thousands years ago and u cannot know what that was?!

you're quoting Surat Al-A'araaf ( 7 ) verses 144-146

Where exactly did you get this translation that says ( saying to Muhammad ) ?

There's no mention in these verses of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) , even continuing several verses after it has no mention of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) it's talking about Prophet Moses ( PBUH )

Anyone who understand proper arabic will know this ,

Also below are three of the most popular english translations to the meaning of the Qur'an , you will find it confirms what I'm saying

[Shakir 7:145] And We ordained for him in the tablets admonition of every kind and clear explanation of all things; so take hold of them with firmness and enjoin your people to take hold of what is best thereof; I will show you the abode of the transgressors.
[Yusufali 7:145] And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin thy people to hold fast by the best in the precepts: soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked,- (How they lie desolate)."
[Pickthal 7:145] And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying): Take the better (course made clear) therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers.

If you still have a question after knowing this , please rephrase it

Originally posted by Moses

What is the message of the first verses of Al-Baqara , when says :

الٓمٓ (١) ذَٲلِكَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبُ لَا رَيۡبَ‌ۛ فِيهِ‌ۛ هُدً۬ى لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٢) ٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقۡنَـٰهُمۡ يُنفِقُونَ (٣) وَٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلِكَ وَبِٱلۡأَخِرَةِ هُمۡ يُوقِنُونَ (٤)

Alif. Lam. Mim. (1) This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4)


Is she talking about believed only in that which revealed unto Muhammad? Or both, in that which revealed unto Muhammad and that which revealed before him?

Qura'an talks about those who believe in what was revealed to Prohpet Muhammad and all the Prophets before him ( PBUT )

Originally posted by Moses

As you see, Quran will not lead everyone who does not really believe in that which revealed before Muhammad. Then if there is not any unchanged Bible or Torah, how we can believe in them?!!! Believe in something that is not in our hands?!!! Believe in books that do not exist?!!!  


No muslim ever said these revelations didn't exist, we believe these revelations happened , and was from God, this is what the verses are talking about

We believe in the past events that occurred, as well as the unknown to our normal senses , such as angels , heaven and hell ...etc.

We believe in the books that was sent to Abraham, even though it's not available now, nor ( AFAIK ) was available at the times of the Prophet Muhammed ( PBUH )

We believe Adam ( PBUH ) was created without parents, did we see this happen ?

We believe Moses split the sea, did we see this happen ?

This is what differentiates a muslim from people of other beliefs / thoughts , such as hindus, buddhist ...etc. whom wouldn't believe in these revelations at all.

This is because Qur'an is sent from the same God who sent all previous Prophets ( PBUT ) , and because Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) didn't invent some new religion , it's the same religion that all Prophets called for , which is worshipping the one and only God
The practices are common in principle, while differs in details
Same as the jews had certain practices , which Jesus ( PBUH ) came and  parts of these practices were changed , Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) came and parts of these practices we changed

Qur'an endorses this in several verses, such as saying that Fasting is obligatory upon us , same as it was obligatory upon those who came before us  ( Surat Al Baqara'a ( 2 ) verse 183

I think looking at the Qur'an as the Final Testament, not something separate from a different source will help putting a different perspective when you read it

Originally posted by Moses

On the other hand , isn`t it the same that you tell: “explains how the Qur'an is to prevail previous scriptures


مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَمُهَيۡمِنًا عَلَيۡهِ‌ۖ


Puting the Quran in a battle against other scriptures, or knowing the harmony?

As mentioned above, Qur'an changes the practices, same as Jesus ( PBUH ) changed the practices that was before him

There's no battles, this why the Qur'an is endorsing the existence of these revelations

Originally posted by Moses

Is the phrase:” Mohaimen Alaihe” (guardian over it) in the meaning of something “better”? Or this is something more powerful to be Guardian of the others? You cannot answer: both!  Because one of them is the meaning of word “Guardian” means something which support and protect from damages, isn`t it? In these verses Quran is talking about herself who confirmed the previous scriptures and Also, Protect them from changes and damages.

Is it complexity of my explanation?!!  Or this is only the meaning of the words of Quran?


There's nothing is this verse that mentions protecting it from change, again where do you get this from ? Do you read it in arabic or english ? 

Originally posted by Moses

And thanks for your advice, I read all of the Quran previously and use to read it nearly every day at present. And I did not find any better explanation to Quran, unless the holy Bible.

I'm not sure I understand the above phrase

Originally posted by Moses

You cannot find even one verse in Quran that says Bible is changed, but every day I hear from Muslims that Bible is changed and we cannot trust on this book. Why?!!

Because as mentioned before in several verses, the Qur'an speaks about the changing of the old and new testament by the people it was sent to

Originally posted by Moses

As Quran says everybody who does not believe in the book of Moses will be in the hell:

This is the islamic view as well, everyone is requested to believe in ALL books sent by God , whether to Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David ( PBUT )

The question to you is , where is the book of Moses ?

In the information you put below there's no mention of the old testament, when it was compiled, any references to it

Originally posted by Moses

And in the next example:

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَرۡسَلَ رَسُولَهُ ۥ بِٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ ٱلۡحَقِّ لِيُظۡهِرَهُ ۥ عَلَى ٱلدِّينِ كُلِّهِۦ‌ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ شَهِيدً۬ا (٢٨)

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a Witness. (28)

This is talking about God`s will to prevail over all religion, may we say prevail the religion Islam (as the strategy or methods of Muhammad at the first years of Islam) to other fake religions which were in that time. But is not talking about prevail of Quran on Bible !!!!!

The verse is talking about religions, not books
After Jesus was sent, whoever lived then , whether he was a jew or not , is requested to follow Jesus
( PBUH ) , this didn't mean that judaism wasn't a religion from God, but the sending of Jesus ( PBUH ) meant it is the current religion to follow

After Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), the teachings he came with became the religion to follow, and thus Qur'an became the book to follow

This is also turning into a topic different than the original topic , which is if the bible ( in it's current form ) is still the word of God
it might be beneficial to move other discussions to a new topic and stick to the topic

Originally posted by Moses

You wrote: “Qur'an was sent as the final guidance, to prevail what was sent with previous Prophets”

As your opinion, I respect that, but it’s not from Quran, only understanding from some other books.

Because Quran says had been sent for confirmation what was sent with previous Prophets, as you read it in the previous lines upward, not to prevail!

The verse is clear that the teachings of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) is to prevail previous teachings,

It confirms these teachings exists, and requests believers to believe it existed, and to follow the new teachings

This is what the Qur'an says, and this is what the person who the Qur'an was sent through taught, which is how we should understand Qur'an , in the light of what Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) taugh

That said, what are we discussing exactly ?

Originally posted by Moses

When I am talking about the Bible, I am talking about a book which included Old and new testaments and some letters which all of them were written by the apostles of Jesus Christ:

Ok, I will assume that what you wrote is correct

Summarizing what you said it means :

New testament was written in Greek between the years 45-95 , these writings we have no reference to at the moment, correct ?

There're 5600 greek manuscripts that still exist
The oldest papyrus we have was copied year 125
The oldest compilation that contains almost what's called now new and old testament dates back to year 350

First : The old testament
A scientific approach would mean we need to know

When was it revealed
How it was written
Which language it was written in
Who wrote it
How did reach us

Without knowing these answers, can we tell that what we call today 'the old testament' is what was revealed to Moses ( PBUH ) ?

Second : The new testament
Which language did Jesus speak ? Greek, Hebrew or Aramic ?
Combining the 5,600 manuscripts you speak of together, what percentage would it make of the new / old testament ?

Assuming the earliest dates you mentioned
What is the guarantee that something that was written on the year 45 then copied on year 125 ( and stretches in parts to year 225 at least ) retains completely it's original

For us muslims, having a 45 days gap ( not a 45 months or a 45 year, not mention tens or hunderds  ) between a person who receives a message / text ...etc. and the next person who reports / writes it , makes it an unacceptable
The weakest category of sayings of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), hadeeth da'eef ( weak hadeeth ) which some scholars don't even accept to use it as evidence, have way far authenticity that this   

Add to that, that according to the three categories you mention

Originally posted by Moses

   First, the books must have apostolic authority-- that is, they must have been written either by the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses to what they wrote about, or by associates of the apostles.

·         Second, there was the criterion of conformity to what was called the "rule of faith." In other words, was the document congruent with the basic Christian tradition that the church recognized as normative.

·         Third, there was the criterion of whether a document had enjoyed continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large.

Means they didn't only accept what was written by the apostles or their associates , they accepted what seems to suit ( the rule of faith ) and the general acceptance and usage by the church at large!

This in any logical sense makes us sure what was written can not be proven to be 100 % exactly what was revealed

Also , the words rule of faith , and general acceptance and usage by the curch seem to be very flexible words
Which rule of faith you speak of ? the one that says Jesus is God, or Son of God ?
Which church acceptance , the catholic church, orthodox church, angelic church ? Which church did accept this ?

Set aside that we're muslims, how can you prove to someone who's not muslim, that the current bible have any links to Jesus ( PBUH ) ? you have no direct links,
you don't  know
for sure who wrote each of these manuscripts
you don't know whom they received it from
you don't know what were their ideologies, if they had motives to alter it or not

How can you convince someone to accept such links to what you claim is the source of salvation and eternal happiness ? Even if I wasn't muslim, it wouldn't make any sense from a logical / scientific point of view

Which is no surprise most of the west today reject faith in all, or think of it as something contradictory to science

That said about the old compilations, I urge you to fetch a copy of the bible that's only 200 years old, and closely start comparing it with the current printed version, I'm sure you'll be very surprised
Originally posted by Moses

but this Book is the same that most of Christians believes that and are preaching and teaching that at present. 

This is a big statement, can you refer to a copy of this book ( which you say is in the vatican library ) and a comparison between it and current version of bible ? 

Originally posted by Moses

When Quran was revealed , there were thousands of this book in all of the world and as Quran says : in their hands.

Excellent, so can you provide a few copies of these thousands that dates to the time of the Qur'an and compare to each other, and to the copy in the vatican library ?

Originally posted by Moses

Then if Quran confirm the Bible, definitely she does not talking about an invisible book!

The Qur'an confirms the revelations that was sent to Moses and Jesus ( PBUT )
At the times of the Qur'an both jews and christians had books in a written form, which the Qur'an accused them of altering it, no one said it was invisible or didn't exist, we said it was altered , and the alteration continued, even at our modern times, where you keep getting
"new edition' of the holy book,
Ever wondered what are the new editions that were changed in it ?

I hope you provide some answers to the questions, same as you get answers


Edited by Meditations - 18 September 2009 at 6:47pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2009 at 3:04pm
Jazakallah Meditation, may Allah reward you for going in detail with patience. Ameen,

Edited by honeto - 16 September 2009 at 3:04pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2009 at 7:47pm
salaams shibbo
 do me a favor shibo. look up the word Gentile ( WEBSTER ONLINE WILL DO) paste the definitions here and tell us which one has been allowed in or "given a place" in gods house.
I'll wait for your reply.
P.S Meditations is mushaallh!!! alhamduliah!!!!

Edited by Nazarene - 18 September 2009 at 7:50pm
love for all conquers all
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Quote Meditations Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2009 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by honeto

Jazakallah Meditation, may Allah reward you for going in detail with patience. Ameen,

Jazak Allah you too dear

A note for all of us , we shouldn't argue unless with patience and good means

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.

If one can't hold to these two for any reason, I urge them not to
may Allah ( SWT) grant us patience, wisdom and good deeds


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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2009 at 3:37pm

Again, you send me links and statements from so-called scholars but I’m still waiting for someone to send me something that out dates the Dead Sea Scrolls authentication of the Holy Bible, the oldest manuscripts that CONFIRMS what we call the BIBLE in it’s purest form today September 19, 2009.  


Over time, some 900 separate scrolls were found. They date from the third century BCE through the first century CE. My word just Google it, you’re googling everything else!


Just sending a link or someone’s opinion on the subject just doesn’t cut it! Present facts not opinions! Can you find these links or statements at a museum, no! Do they date back before the time of Muhammad, no!


You have proven again in your world, opinions are what matters not facts not real solid evidence. Go to the Qumran Library, the library of Congress, the British Museum, Israel Museum or Google it from the comfort of your home. That’s PROOF! Not links and debates, those are ONLY opinions, one-sided because I can’t ask them question etc…

Read with an open mind **Pay specific attention to #10 and #25**

The Dead Sea Scrolls, which date back to the events described in the New Testament, have added to our understanding of the Jewish background of Christianity. Scholars have pointed to similarities between beliefs and practices outlined in the Qumran literature and those of early Christians. These parallels include comparable rituals of baptism, communal meals, and property. Most interesting is the parallel organizational structures: the sectarians divided themselves into twelve tribes led by twelve chiefs, similar to the structure of the early Church, with twelve apostles who, according to Jesus, would to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Many scholars believe that both the literature of Qumran and the early Christian teachings stem from a common stream within Judaism and do not reflect a direct link between the Qumran community and the early Christians.


The Bible as we have it today is close to those scientifically proven manuscript that dates back HUNDREDS of years before Muhammad’s birth, 100’s! Show something that dates back that far that PROVES God’s word is corrupt, all sixty six books of the Bible! Even the Prophet knew not to go THERE!


Now! If you want to make this interesting because you’re not going to be able to send me ANYTHING that out-dates the “DEAD SEA SCROLL” but read it, so many things you can learn.


Send me 3 scriptures that YOU think are corrupt and why and let us discuss it, particularly those dealing with Muhammad.

Edited by Shibboleth - 19 September 2009 at 3:39pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2009 at 4:42pm
To Nazarene...................this requires another thread.

The term Gentile (from Latin, gentilis, meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe) refers to non-Israelite tribes or nations in English translations of the

Until 36 C.E. the Christian message was directed solely to Jews, to Gentiles who had become circumcised Jewish proselytes, and to Samaritans.

“The kingdom of God will be taken from you (Jews) and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:43) Rebuilt temple destroyed in 70C.E. (Matthew 23:37, 38)

“God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”—Acts 10:34, 35.


‘God has granted repentance for the purpose of life to people of the nations also.’” (Acts 11:18)


Acts 2:17-18

يَقُولُ اللهُ: وَيَكُونُ فِي الأَيَّامِ الأَخِيرَةِ أَنِّي أَسْكُبُ مِنْ رُوحِي عَلَى كُلِّ بَشَرٍ، فَيَتَنَبَّأُ بَنُوكُمْ وَبَنَاتُكُمْ، وَيَرَى شَبَابُكُمْ رُؤًى وَيَحْلُمُ شُيُوخُكُمْ أَحْلاَمًا.

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


وَعَلَى عَبِيدِي أَيْضًا وَإِمَائِي أَسْكُبُ مِنْ رُوحِي فِي تِلْكَ الأَيَّامِ فَيَتَنَبَّأُونَ.

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy


Acts 2:1-21


2 Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, 2 and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. 3 And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, 4 and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.

5 As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·le´ans, are they not? 8 And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? 9 Par´thi·ans and Medes and E´lam·ites, and the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·ta´mi·a, and Ju·de´a and Cap·pa·do´ci·a, Pon´tus and the [district of] Asia, 10 and Phryg´i·a and Pam·phyl´i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib´y·a, which is toward Cy·re´ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cre´tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” 12 Yes, they were all astonished and were in perplexity, saying one to another: “What does this thing purport to be?” 13 However, different ones mocked at them and began to say: “They are full of sweet wine.”

14 But Peter stood up with the eleven and raised his voice and made this utterance to them: “Men of Ju·de´a and all YOU inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to YOU and give ear to my sayings. 15 These [people] are, in fact, not drunk, as YOU suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; 18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; 20 the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’

Edited by Shibboleth - 19 September 2009 at 4:44pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2009 at 4:55pm

Isn't the true question whether the Bible was ever the Word of God?

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Meditations Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2009 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Isn't the true question whether the Bible was ever the Word of God?

It depends on what you mean by the 'bible'
do you mean what was revealed to Moses ( PBUH ) Al taw'rah, which is what people call what they have now and think of it as it is 'The old testament'
or do you mean what was revealed to Jesus ( PBUH ) Al Injeel, which is what people call what they have now and think of it as it is 'The new testament'
Do you mean what was revealed to David ( PBUH ) ?
Or is it something that's a combination of all these ?

So it depends on what you consider the 'bible' and in which stage in time

Definitely each of the mentioned above is a divine revelation when it was revealed, the question is how much of it's original revelation reached us ?


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