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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Is the Bible Still the Word of God? Post Reply Post New Topic
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neil
 
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Quote neil Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2014 at 12:18am
Dear Amil

Thank you for your correspondence.

Islam denies the existence of the Holy Spirit.

Christians, we know better because we have received the Holy Spirit and He abides in me.

For you to say in effect, I don't know any Holy Spirit is not proof that the Holy Spirit does not exist.

You may not know of Cowbit in Lincolnshire UK, but I assure you it exists.

Being prudent, I believe that there is a city in the USA called New York ...but I have never been there.

Mohamed really did this one wrong ...but it is your choice to deny and be blind than to believe credible witnesses and verify for yourself.

Regards

Neil
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mutakallim
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Quote mutakallim Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2014 at 8:29am
Salaam Neil.

I participate in this forum not to convince you of what Muhammad brings in the Qur'an but only to request you to be civilized (as we expect of those in Europe) and that colonialism was a product of one part being illiterate. Now we can speak English language. Illiteracy is on those who cannot afford to go to school.
I was a student in Liverpool university and as such I am employing you to think twice and be educated. If you do not know about Muhammad make effort to know him before you disagree with him.
The Holy Spirit is what he says in the Qur'an 2:87, 253, etc.

Mutakallim.
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neil
 
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Quote neil Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2014 at 2:04pm
Dear Honeto

The bible mentions "holy" or "holiness" at least 41 times.

"Holy" means sanctified or set apart from the world; these are men redeemed and "walking in the Spirit": people whose sins are forgiven and who now walk without sinning.

This is a hard 'concept' for Muslims to understand because you are taught that sinful behaviour is inevitable for all men. This teaching is not true.

Also, know you not that if you walk "in the Spirit" then...
1Jo 2:20     But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Heady stuff!

So. go ahead, ask me something.

Your: "As Muslim...by God" doesn't make sense to me. explain what you mean?

Regards

Neil
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Quote neil Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2014 at 2:39pm
Dear Mutakalim

I assure you that I am university educated like yourself.
Did you complete a degree, like I did?

Does that make us both educated? Hopefully so.

However, unlike you, I do not vilify those who have a different viewpoint to my own; I enter into a dialogue, if it is profitable.

So,
firstly, are Muslim rulers free from colonising other lands?

"Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent mainly took place from the 12th to the 16th centuries, though earlier Muslim conquests made limited inroads into modern Afghanistan and Pakistan as early as the time of the Rajput kingdoms in the 7th century. With the establishment of the Delhi Sultanate, Islam spread across large parts of the subcontinent. In 1204, Bakhtiar Khilji led the Muslim conquest of Bengal, marking the eastern-most expansion of Islam at the time"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

The Moors in Spain and France in the 8th century?

The Turks, Syrians, Iraqi's and Iranians all refuse to allow the Kurds to establish their own country.

Are these a product of illiteracy or greed and power-hungry rulers? Or what?

Secondly, I know enough about Islam and its founder to make informed decisions.

Do you have any personal knowledge of the Holy Spirit, or are you just repeating what you have been told or have read in a book?

Please let me put this question to you: if you accused me in court of defrauding you, and I accused you similarly, who would win?

Please reply in a civilised manner.

Thank you

Regards

Neil.


Edited by neil - 23 January 2014 at 2:41pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2014 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by neil

Dear Amil

Thank you for your correspondence.

Islam denies the existence of the Holy Spirit.

Christians, we know better because we have received the Holy Spirit and He abides in me.

For you to say in effect, I don't know any Holy Spirit is not proof that the Holy Spirit does not exist.

You may not know of Cowbit in Lincolnshire UK, but I assure you it exists.

Being prudent, I believe that there is a city in the USA called New York ...but I have never been there.

Mohamed really did this one wrong ...but it is your choice to deny and be blind than to believe credible witnesses and verify for yourself.

Regards

Neil


Neil,
if holy spirit lives in you than you become holy or the holy spirit becomes unholy! So, think before you claim.
There is simple test that will show the truth of your claim that the holy spirit abides in you. You as a Christian believe that holy spirit is God and that God knows all. If the holy spirit dwells in you as you claim, you would know everything? Do you know everything? let me know because I need to ask something specific, if you cannot answer it there goes your claim, and the truth is manifest.
As Muslims we know holy spirit to be God's creation who is under God's commands and who is assigned tasks by God.
In Islam we believe that the holy spirit was sent by God to the prophets with God's message to warn people. Prophets received the holy spirit because they had the qualities and character higher than anyone else, they were clean and God purified them to receive the holy spirit, who gave and instructed them with God's message.
" Raised high above ranks, (God is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,- 40:15 Al Quran
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 23 January 2014 at 5:35pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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neil
 
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Quote neil Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2014 at 1:34am
Dear Honeto

So what are you going to ask me?

Regards

Neil
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Quote mutakallim Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2014 at 4:17am
Neil.

Good! If we are all educated then we must respect our source of learning and specialty if available. What attracts me in the Qur'an is 2:2, "That is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt to those who fear (Allah/God, Elohim, Jehovah)."
Quantum mechanics is not the same as Electrophoresis although they are studied  under 'Physics.' Muhammad told the Levites in Medina that they have their way to obey their Lord and he has his own way to obey the Lord. Let there be no fight or quarrels. I mentioned education for Europeans are assumed to be rational, free, intelligent and ever ready to reason and judge. But when it comes to obedience to the Creator they do not even believe that they gave a created! What you are encouraged to do by the followers of Muhammad is not what Muhammad encourages you to do. He claims that he is sent by the same One whom sent all Messengers and Prophets to mankind for their salvation. He brought the same message. If you differ in him then he is not responsible - Settle your score with the One who sent him to mankind.
Good! Your statement: Are these a product of illiteracy or greed and power-hungry rulers? Or what?- is true. We followers of Muhammad are exceedingly ignorant and arrogant. You jumped to 12th century without starting from the moment and day Sumayya ( a lady) and her husband were murdered by Abu Jahl and his cohorts. You do not see the justification of Muhammad defending his right after his expulsion from Makka. You do not see how he disallowed his brothers cousins and uncles to forfeit their property after the conquest of Makka. You do not see his saying to his frightened cousins uncles; "I have forgiven you in the manner Yusuf (Joseph) forgave his brothers who wanted to kill him. We are to learn and take our training behaviour etc from Muhammad and not from those misinterpreting his way of life. There is a lot to learn from the history but it takes me.
Now regarding the Holy Spirit, it is mentioned 4 times in the Qur'an thrice in Medina 2:87, 253, 5:110;  and one in Makka 16:102 before the hijra. It is a term referred to angel Gabriel. When the then disbelievers in Makka accused Muhammad of forgery, Allah told him to tell them, "Ruh Quddus (angel Gabriel) has brought it down from your Lord with truth."  In the Medina verses, the term is attached to Jesus son of Maryam. That is Allah supported him with angel Gabriel.
That is what I read from the Qur'an and not from the Torah or the New Testament. It is unfair and uncivilized for one to dwell into what he does not believe and know. If you do not believe in Islam, then keep it to your self please. I cannot disbelieve in my Book for as a scientist if I am faced with a problem, I refer to my text books. Why should you then force me to ABANDON MY SOURCE OF KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF? Why are you going to deprive me of my certificates and honor?

Mutakallim.


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Quote neil Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2014 at 8:39am
Dear Mutakallim

Thank you for your correspondence.

Please do not assume all Europeans are "rational, free, intelligent and ever ready to reason and judge." Hitler was a monster enchained by darkness.

Neither assume they are Christians in the main; they are predominantly secular or title themselves as "Christian" without following, and being obedient to, the precepts of the Bible.

"What you are encouraged to do by the followers of Muhammad is not what Muhammad encourages you to do". I don't understand you here.

"You do not see the justification of Muhammad defending his right after his expulsion from Makka. You do not see how he disallowed his brothers cousins and uncles to forfeit their property after the conquest of Makka. You do not see his saying to his frightened cousins uncles; "I have forgiven you in the manner Yusuf (Joseph) forgave his brothers who wanted to kill him. We are to learn and take our training behaviour etc from Muhammad and not from those misinterpreting his way of life. There is a lot to learn from the history but it takes me". I don't understand the point you are seemingly trying to make here.

There is no reference to: "Medina 2:87, 253, 5:110" in
http://quran.com/2 or on the web or Makka 16:102 (a fashion firm in Burnley UK?)

It is obvious that one doesn't "dwell into what he does not believe and know" (Did you mean delve?)

It is, however, uncivilised to say, as a matter of principle, "If you do not believe in Islam, then keep it to your self please."
Many people did not believe in slavery and spoke against it until it was abolished in the UK. People here have campaigned for freedom of speech. You have freedom of opinion with me, and I expect it from you. I believe in the right to be persuaded in one's choice of religion. So, how would you feel if "Christians" in the UK killed anyone converting to Islam from "Christianity"? You would be outraged. But what from a Muslim perspective?

8/12/2004

The Prince of Wales is brokering efforts to end the Muslim death penalty on converts to other faiths, The Telegraph has learned.

He held a private summit of Christian and Muslim leaders at Clarence House this month to explore the centuries-old Islamic law under which apostates face persecution and even death.

His intervention follows mounting anger at the treatment of Muslims who have converted to Christianity in a number of Islamic states.

As an advocate of inter-faith dialogue, Prince Charles has come under pressure to criticise the religious law that, campaigners say, has resulted in hundreds of executions in countries from Iran to Sudan.

Let us take a more civilised view:
As a fellow scientist, we should look at the evidence and draw logical conclusions irrespective of what others say.

Many a scientific principle seems preposterous only to be found to be true later. Perhaps Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is one of these.

"Why should you then force me to ABANDON MY SOURCE OF KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF? Why are you going to deprive me of my certificates and honor?"

No-one can do this, you have choice.
You should, however, make the best choice for yourself, an informed choice. That's obvious.

2:2
Sahih International
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah

Do you a consciousness of God? Your Allah is unknowable



Contrast this with the Quranic description of Allah as unknowable. Indeed, in Islam, it is considered blasphemous to "presume" that one can know God or claim any sort of close, personal fellowship with Allah. This theological view developed early in Islam, being espoused by al-Ghazali. Shehadi summarises al-Ghazali's teachings on this point,

"The end result of the knowledge of the `arifin [ed. note - a term denoting "the knowers"] is their inability to know Him, and their knowledge is, in truth, that they do not know Him and that it is absolutely impossible for them to know Him."1

This view is also understood among modern Islamic scholarship, where the statement of al-Faruqi is representative,

"He [God] does not reveal Himself to anyone in any way.

So you do not know him a personal way, but only know what someone else has told you. That means that your knowledge of your god is secondhand.

For the born-again, Holy Ghost filled Christian, this is not so,
Jer 31:34     And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

There are many more factors to consider, primarily that Mohamed's testimony is the testimony of ONLY ONE man and hence could be seen as unreliable in the face of Christianity which is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

It is also suspicious that Islam dismisses all parts of the Bible which contradicts its doctrines, yet rallies enthusiastically round those bits that do not threaten it. How convenient.

Dialogue?

Regards

Neil

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