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Message Icon Topic: Is the Bible Still the Word of God? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Shibboleth
 
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2010 at 6:59am
Originally posted by honeto

I have personally studied the Bible, sad to say that it is true that it contradict itself on many places.

 
I already refuted the other scriptures that you thought contradicted it self. Besides, your Quran says “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them (3:84 AYA).

And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession (2:89 MP).

 
To thee We sent the scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety (5:48 MP/51 AYA).
 

How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? (5:43, MP)

 
At least believe in your own holy book! Why would Muhammad even use them if they were as Muslims say "corrupt" and then say the above.
 
Show me a few passages in the Quran that says the Holy Scriptures are corrupt. I'll look for your passages from the Quran.

Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them (7:157 MP)

 
How can you confirm anything if it’s corrupted? Either the Bible is true or it’s false it can’t be both, so which is it? If one is to prove that something is correct, then you would use other material available. Since the Bible contains both truth and falsehood as you say, one can’t do both.  Either Allah protected it as he said he would or he failed to protect it!
 

You cannot be a Muslim and understand the Bible at the same time, can you? You cannot worship Allah, Muhammad's God and Jehovah (YHWH)the God of Abraham. It’s a hard reality that Muslims do not want to face.



Edited by Shibboleth - 10 August 2010 at 7:05am
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2010 at 3:23am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

Originally posted by honeto

I have personally studied the Bible, sad to say that it is true that it contradict itself on many places.

 
I already refuted the other scriptures that you thought contradicted it self. Besides, your Quran says “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them (3:84 AYA).

And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession (2:89 MP).

 
To thee We sent the scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety (5:48 MP/51 AYA).
 

How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? (5:43, MP)

 
At least believe in your own holy book! Why would Muhammad even use them if they were as Muslims say "corrupt" and then say the above.
 
Show me a few passages in the Quran that says the Holy Scriptures are corrupt. I'll look for your passages from the Quran.

Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them (7:157 MP)

 
How can you confirm anything if it’s corrupted? Either the Bible is true or it’s false it can’t be both, so which is it? If one is to prove that something is correct, then you would use other material available. Since the Bible contains both truth and falsehood as you say, one can’t do both.  Either Allah protected it as he said he would or he failed to protect it!
 

You cannot be a Muslim and understand the Bible at the same time, can you? You cannot worship Allah, Muhammad's God and Jehovah (YHWH)the God of Abraham. It’s a hard reality that Muslims do not want to face.

Shibboleth, now where in the Quran Allah (S) conforms the “BIBLE”! The bible is a collection of books. Allah (S) told us to believe in the revealed books and not a “collection” of books (bible).

It seems to me you not reading the Qur’an, but only quote others statement and used their idea; if you had research for yourself you would not ask that question.

 This is what Allah (S) informed us:

Allah mentioned in the Qur’an: “None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not Allah hath power over all things?”  (Q.2:106) 

 Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) place, and say “We hear and disobey,”…and but few of them will believe. (Q.4:46)

 Allah (S) said: There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” But it is not from Allah: it is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Q.3:78)

From those, too, who called themselves Christians We did take a Covenant, But they forgot a good part of the message that was sent down: So We stirred up enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. (Q.5:14)

 …and the disciples were called Christians first in An-ti-och. (Act.11:26)

 Allah knows what in your heart:Ye People of the Book! Why do you mix truth with falsehood, and conceal the truth, while ye have knowledge?” (Q.3:71)

 In this verse Allah (S) is telling us that the Qur’an came to set the record straight: 

O People of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that you used to hide in your Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a light [Muhamed (pbuh)] and a perspicuous Book.” (Q.5:15)

 …So fear Allah, and obey me [Muhamed (S) and the message he brought]. (Q.3:50)

 Verily this Qur’an doith guide to that which is most right. (Q.17:9)

Adding to that:

Islam is not a new religion, the foundation of Jesus (S) message was “submission to the will of God” and that is the foundation of all religion which prescribed for mankind since the beginning of time. God Almighty says in Qur’an 3:19 “Truly, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam (submission).”

In Arabic, submission to God’s wills is expressed in the word “Islam”. Jesus (S) preaches “submission to God’s wills (Islam),” he said in Matthew 7:22 “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in Heaven.” In this statement, Jesus (S) place emphasis on “the will of the father”, submission of the human will to the will of God. In john 5:30, it is mentioned that Jesus (S) also said: “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”   

 

All other religions…the message was for that people at that time and they will be judge according to that message at that time and the Quran is for all mankind and the people of our time will judge by the message of the Quran if the message reaches them. This is what Allah (S) said: “For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).” (Qur.16:36)

  Also in Qur.14:4 “We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.”

  For example Jesus (S) was sent to the Children of Israel:  Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

  Muhammad (S) was sent as a universal Messenger to all mankind, Allah (S) said in Qur’an: “We have not sent thee but as a (universal messenger) to all mankind…but most of mankind knew not”. (Q.34:28)

 Our Job is to convey the message: …And say to the People of the Book…“Do ye (also) submit yourselves?” If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah’s sight are (all) His servants. (Q.3:20)

  Quran. 3:64 Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

 Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the truth that hath come to thee… (Q.5:47-48)

 Say: “O People of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that comes to us and that which came before (us)…?” (Q.5:59)

 Your companion is neither astray nor mislead, of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: he was taught by one Mighty in Power. (Q.53:2-5)

Allah (S) informs us how to recognize a true follower of the Messiah (S):

 …And nearest among them in love to the Believers (Muslim) wilt thou find those who say, We are Christians Because among these are men devoted to learning and who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (Q.5:82)

TNC

LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2010 at 3:37am
Shibboleth,to make matters simple, let me ask you this question. The God of Abraham’s promise to bless Abraham’s son Ishmael and make him a Great nation: And as for Ishmael…Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and multiply him exceedingly…and I will make a GREAT NATION.” (Genesis 17:20). Who are those people?
 
TNC
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2010 at 12:17pm

Truth..nc - I asked that question to see which verses you’re basing these statements on, these scriptures are from you’re Quran; either you use them for Guidance and light as Muhammad did or you don’t! If you don’t you’re going against Allah’s commands.

 

My differences are with the Quran the LAST holy book and its messenger(s) the LAST Prophet. If the truth of Islam is the goal or proof of your reasoning you cannot use the Quran (The book in question) in the process or for the foundation of your argument against the Bible, that’s circular reasoning and circular logic. The Quran is the Bible’s rivalry so it would speak in favor of itself over the Bible just as the Veda the sacred scripture of Hinduism would speak in favor of itself over the Quran or the Talmud. In the court of law to present any case you need to state your case using FACTS, PROOFS HARD-CORE evidence not theories, statements or accusations.

You have only presented scriptures in your holy book to prove your holy book correct.   

If you or anyone else is saying that Allah CANNOT protect or guard his inspired Word and keep it from being corrupted or altered when he said he would you have giving man and the devil more POWER than God! If God has gone back on his word because he decided to change his mind, what makes you think he will not go back on his words again, again and again? If any God fearing man, women or child believes that, may God have mercy on their soul.

 

In any event there are scribes, religious leaders and prophets who have misunderstood God’s word and teach and preach something otherwise and even wrote books in what they believe to be from a “higher” source. That in no way mean that God’s Holy Word the Bible was corrupted. That is man or women misinterpretation of God’s HOLY Word.

Originally posted by truthnowcome

In Arabic, submission to God’s wills is expressed in the word “Islam”. Jesus (S) preaches “submission to God’s wills (Islam),” he said in Matthew 7:22 “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in Heaven.” In this statement, Jesus (S) place emphasis on “the will of the father”, submission of the human will to the will of God. In john 5:30, it is mentioned that Jesus (S) also said: “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

As I mentioned to Islamispeace How can you confirm anything if the Bible is corrupted? Either the Bible is true or it’s false it can’t be both, so which is it? If one is to prove that something is correct, then you would use other material available. Since the Bible contains both truth and falsehood as you say, one can’t do both.  Either Allah protected it as he said he would or he failed to protect it!

 

You cannot be a Muslim and understand the Bible at the same time. You cannot worship Allah and Jehovah the God of Abraham and follow Jesus his son. Here you have a quote but within the same quote Jesus says "his father in heaven"; that would make Jesus his son, which the Quran vehemently denies. What part of this scripture is corrupted? I guess you would like to believe part of that scipture is true. You also fail to note in that same passage, acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord is essential in true worship and salvation, but do you? Muslims DON’T! The Bible CANNOT be BOTH right and wrong just because Muslims lack knowledge of the Holy Scriptures and is unable to decipher it.

 

Originally posted by truthnowcome

Shibboleth,to make matters simple, let me ask you this question.
The God of Abraham’s promise to bless Abraham’s son Ishmael and make him a Great nation: And as for Ishmael…Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and multiply him exceedingly…and I will make a GREAT NATION.” (Genesis 17:20). Who are those people?  

 
Answer to follow….


Edited by Shibboleth - 11 August 2010 at 6:19pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2010 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

It seems to me you not reading the Qur’an, but only quote others statement and used their idea; if you had research for yourself you would not ask that question.


Yes.  That would be the pseudo-scholards at Answering-Islam.  Well-spotted brother!  I am not the only one after all! LOL
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2010 at 8:19pm
Dear Shibbo,
I don't know why you come here to discuss when you don't want to answer what is asked of you?
I have put together a simple test for you to answer, yet all I got was babble, and complaining that your book say this and that.  We are talking about the Bible if you missed the topic, so let us keep with the topic. I will write here again for you please answer and address only what is contained in my question and post, thanks, be brave to face the facts.

Here is a simple test.
I have personally studied the Bible, sad to say that it is true that it contradict itself on many places.
Just to prove my claim, I will only give one clear example, unless you ask for another.

Deuteronomy 24:16 " Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

Exodus 34:7  (God) punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

What it proves is simple, those are two different things, and the All Knowing God would not say two opposing things that are part of same book. There are other possibilities that can be the reason for such discrepancies since God does not lie nor contradict. What about human error or intentions behind this and other similar inconsistencies in the Bible?

Truly , those that cover up the truth, only dig deeper for themselves.....
May God guide those who seek His guidance in truth, Ameen.
Hasan 



Edited by honeto - 13 August 2010 at 8:21pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2010 at 10:06am

Originally posted by truthnowcome

It seems to me you not reading the Qur’an, but only quote others statement and used their idea; if you had research for yourself you would not ask that question.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Yes.  That would be the pseudo-scholards at Answering-Islam.  Well-spotted brother!  I am not the only one after all!

See! I knew you were paranoid!

But, whether I’ve read the Quran OR the Bible is irrelevant for a book to be true.  Just as whether you’ve read the Bible or the Quran is irrelevant. What is relevant is what you believe based on the FACTS you have and are convinced; am I correct? If one does not have sound, historical, archeological and documented proof to dispute another’s belief as wrong, how can one say what a person should or should not believe without intelligent facts to back up your own statements as being true?  

If you’re an evolutionist or an atheist and I a creationist, how can I convince you why you should believe in creation and not evolution by way of PROOF or evidence? Using the Bible or the Quran? No, that will not be helpful because they don’t believe in God. That is what YOU are doing when presenting Islam; you use the Quran and Hadith as evidence, the very book that’s in question and on trial.

Also, whether one is influence by his colleagues, the Internet, or life is NOT relevant to truth as islamispeace seems to believe.  

If what you believe in is TRUTH (Quran) and you have hard core facts to prove it true outside that material (Quran) then you have a case that can be presented with hard core FACTS. The info I received from my colleagues, the Internet or life shouldn’t matter because we both cannot be right, it’s up to you to prove me wrong.    

Of all the web-sites out there against Christianity and Answering Christianity and links that have been posted here from them, you never heard me say anything regarding that in my posts have you? Not at all, truth is truth no matter where people say it. But Islam is peace? seems to be in fear of the Quran and Muhammad being exposed by AI or me, why? What is there to be afraid of? You even went to the extreme to expose me! If you’re going to open a thread open one on Isaac (Jesus) and Ishmael (Muhammad) and this GREAT nation; since it is as Muslims say Muhammad line of decent and see who this promise seed of Abraham is. It’s YOU and ME; let’s get to the bottom of this charade! You had no sources for Gabriel speaking to Muhammad, just your Quran and the hadiths the ones on trial in the first place. This time use reputable sources outside Islam to prove Islam and see how far you will get if any-where and I’ll use reputable  sources outside of Christianity.

I’ll even let you use http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm like you’ve been using if you really think that will help you any, it hasn’t yet! This is your CHANCE son! Bury this so called “pseudo- scholar” as you say once and for all if you dare for all to see!      

 



Edited by Shibboleth - 18 August 2010 at 9:59am
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2010 at 9:05am

Originally posted by honeto

Deuteronomy 24:16 " Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

Exodus 34:7  (God) punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

When you examine the surrounding material and setting of theses verses. It then becomes obvious that when God mentioned punishment as coming upon not only fathers but also sons and grandsons, he was speaking of what would result to Israelites as a nation if they sinned against him and were taken into captivity, which eventually happened. On the other hand, when mentioning that children would not be liable for the error of his father, he was speaking of personal accountability.

Originally posted by honeto

What it proves is simple, those are two different things, and the All Knowing God would not say two opposing things that are part of same book. There are other possibilities that can be the reason for such discrepancies since God does not lie nor contradict. What about human error or intentions behind this and other similar inconsistencies in the Bible?

What it proves is that you can say it but you don’t believe it or have faith in it yourself! It's very simple if you're not BIAS. You rather believe God’s Word is corrupted, although God is all powerful. You are right, God’s Word does not lie or contradict but YOU are finding it hard to believe within your own word which is ironic. Have you too become blinded? You say one thing but you mean another that is proof why YOU and many others think Allah’s written words are contradictory.      

If your scenario was correct which it’s definitely not as I just PROVED, it would also mean that God could not protect and guard his revelation when he himself said that he would. Therefore, people would TRUST no revelation by God/Allah; the first, second, third, fourth or fifth according to Muslims reasoning. But, because Muslims fail to understand, TRUST and believe the Holy Scriptures/ Bible, that puts you at a very disadvantage and serious position. As I said before the Quran is the Bible's rival! It will not agree with the Bible in most cases and Christians do not expect it to although Muhammad relied on it heavily.

As long as you THINK by discrediting the Bible, because of what Ibn Khazem and others have said that makes the Quran credible, you are seriously and grossly mistaken, God’s word IS preserved and trust-worthy. As you yourself said “he’s all powerful” and he does not LIE. You are digging yourself into a bigger whole on so many levels it’s not even funny. What you are saying is, First, God is weak and cannot protect his word.  Secondly, God does lie. Third, man is able to Alter God’s Holy Word. 
 

What Muslims falsly believe because the Quran does not agree with the Bible on the most fundamental teachings , then it must be the Bible, God’s Holy Word that must be wrong. Be careful! You ARE standing on cracked ice! It is for this reason Muslims will never comprehend the complete meaning of the scriptures because the God of Abraham, Jehovah (YHWH) will not grant you that ability.  

You are under OBLIGATION to do so but you have NOT! The Qur’ān emphasizes emphatically : “Each one (of them) [the men of faith] believeth in God, His angels, His books, and His apostles.” (Al-Baqarah [2]:285) The Qur’ān also speaks about the faithful “who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.” (Al-Baqarah [2]:4)

If like islamispeace n' others you think these words were corrupted before Muhammad received them you have nothing to stand for but everything to fall for.

We read at Āl ‘Imrān [3]:3, 4, NJD: “He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel [Injīl in Arabic] for the guidance of men.” (See also Al-Mā’idah [5]:46, 47.) And we find at Al-Nisā’ [4]:163: “To David We gave the Psalms.” The Qur’ān also encourages going back to these books: “If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee.”—Yūnus [10]:94.

If the Book of truth were already corrupted when Muhammad received them, you and many others have just pulled the rug not only from under Muhammad’s feet but your own feet as well!

May peace be unto you……



Edited by Shibboleth - 18 August 2010 at 9:37am
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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