IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Is the Bible Still the Word of God?

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Originally posted by shibboleth

We did
reveal the Torah (Tawrat), wherein is guidance and a light ... Q5:44 

- Can Muhammad really be
guided when something is corrupt or altered? 

And already have we written
in the Psalms (Zabur) after the reminder that the earth shall my
righteous servants inherit.' Q21:105 

- But, how could we trust that
if it is corrupted?

Subsequent to them, we sent
Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave
him the Gospel (Injil), containing guidance and light, and confirming
the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and
to enlighten the righteous. Q5:46

 – If corrupted why Jesus didn’t say they were corrupted
instead of directing us to these Revelations? 

Because YOU lack
comprehension and insight on the previous revelations doesn’t mean it’s
corrupt! Believe what Allah tells you or you only totally submit when it’s convenience.

On several occasions many of you tried to prove to me that
the Bible contradicts itself by providing me with passages and verses from the Bible,
no prob! Thus far no one has refuted my remarks in disagreement, great! You
know who you are!  

Several of you also insist that God’s Holy Word the Bible
was altered or tampered with, therefore some of its true meaning lost, I again
proved you wrong. Don’t attack what you don’t know, you will only find yourself
in reality blaspheming against the Almighty God the author of the Bible. 

In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been corrupted
and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend Islam against Christianity
because Ibn-Khazem comes upon differences and contradiction between the Bible
and the Quran. Believing, by his faith that the Quran was true, the Bible must
then be false. He said, "Since the Quran must be true it must be the
conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells you to respect the
Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians after
the time of Muhammad." Some Muslims NOW say before he received
the Gospel, which one is it then? 

His argument was not based on any evidence or historical
facts but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to safeguard the
Quran. This led him to teach that, "The Christians lost the revealed
Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as

argument against them."

Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New Testament texts.

     a.   Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
     b.   Amr al-Ghakhiz (869)     "    "    "    "
     c.   BUKHARI (810-870)       “    "    "    "    "
(he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to    support his belief in the text
          of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
     d.   Al-Mas'udi (956)         "    "    "    "
     e.   Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina  (1037)"   "    "
     f.   AL-GHAZZALI (1111)        "    "    "    "
(probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not   accept his teachings)
     g.   Ibn-Khaldun (1406)       "    "    "    "    "    " 
          (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed  
           the earlier Islamic teachers.)
     h.   Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us 
          Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
     i.   Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The 
         Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and 
         Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable 
         thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and     
         widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation." 

Going forward those of you who allege that the scriptures been altered please provide the 
true text to prove what exactly has been changed, altered or contradicts, you tell me what it should read or be.  
Let’s now see how short this thread will be, no more back and forth provide some sort of proof or evidence not 
opinions and allegations because you lack understanding of the Bible, it’s been entertaining enough. We can all learn from one another and we’re all children of Abraham. So, hang up your arrogance and put aside your bitter personal vendetta(s) you have. Angrily charged words because of a bruised ego and because of showing yourself inadequate don’t work, don’t even bother responding. Time to separate TRUTH from FALSE! Step UP or step OUT! 

Greetings 

Edited by Shibboleth - 02 September 2010 at 11:59am

Author	Message
Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 02 September 2010 at 11:47am
	< ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><> *Originally posted by shibboleth* We did reveal the Torah (Tawrat), wherein is guidance and a light ... Q5:44 - Can Muhammad really be guided when something is corrupt or altered? And already have we written in the Psalms (Zabur) after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.' Q21:105 - But, how could we trust that if it is corrupted? Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel (Injil), containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. Q5:46 – If corrupted why Jesus didn’t say they were corrupted instead of directing us to these Revelations? Because YOU lack comprehension and insight on the previous revelations doesn’t mean it’s corrupt! Believe what Allah tells you or you only totally submit when it’s convenience. On several occasions many of you tried to prove to me that the Bible contradicts itself by providing me with passages and verses from the Bible, no prob! Thus far no one has refuted my remarks in disagreement, great! You know who you are! Several of you also insist that God’s Holy Word the Bible was altered or tampered with, therefore some of its true meaning lost, I again proved you wrong. Don’t attack what you don’t know, you will only find yourself in reality blaspheming against the Almighty God the author of the Bible. In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been corrupted and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend Islam against Christianity because Ibn-Khazem comes upon differences and contradiction between the Bible and the Quran. Believing, by his faith that the Quran was true, the Bible must then be false. He said, "Since the Quran must be true it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells you to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians *after* the time of Muhammad." Some Muslims NOW say *before* he received the Gospel, which one is it then? His argument was not based on any evidence or historical facts but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to safeguard the Quran. This led him to teach that, "The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as argument against them." Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New Testament texts. a. Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts b. Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) " " " " c. BUKHARI (810-870) “ " " " " (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78) d. Al-Mas'udi (956) " " " " e. Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037)" " " f. AL-GHAZZALI (1111) " " " " (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings) g. Ibn-Khaldun (1406) " " " " " " (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.) h. Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced." i. Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation." Going forward those of you who allege that the scriptures been altered please provide the true text to prove what exactly has been changed, altered or contradicts, you tell me what it should read or be. Let’s now see how short this thread will be, no more back and forth provide some sort of proof or evidence not opinions and allegations because you lack understanding of the Bible, it’s been entertaining enough. We can all learn from one another and we’re all children of Abraham. So, hang up your arrogance and put aside your bitter personal vendetta(s) you have. Angrily charged words because of a bruised ego and because of showing yourself inadequate don’t work, don’t even bother responding. Time to separate TRUTH from FALSE! Step UP or step OUT! Greetings Edited by Shibboleth - 02 September 2010 at 11:59am
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 05 September 2010 at 8:56pm
	To Shibb Visit: Does Islam Endorse The Bible?
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Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 08 September 2010 at 11:10am
	< ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><> *Originally posted by shibboleth* Going forward those of you who allege that the scriptures been altered please provide the true text to prove *what exactly* has been changed, altered or contradicts, you tell me what it should read or be. Mansoor. are you not able to explain what's been altered and then provide your proof? I don't read links they can't answer any of my questions but you on the other hand may be able to. Edited by Shibboleth - 08 September 2010 at 11:21am
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 09 September 2010 at 11:17am
	To Shibb Topic:Is the Bible Still the Word of God? No it is not.Bible itself speaks that it is not word of God because it contains countless contradictions.Here is example of a difference between the gospels. Story of Jarius’ daughter All four gospels agree that Jesus (P) raised someone to life. But they disagree on details.In Mark Jarius asks Jesus (P) to heal his daughter because she is at the point of death (Mark chapter 5). But the girl dies as they are on the way, but Jesus (P) insists that she is asleep and goes in and tells the girl to get up and she gets up. In Matthew,who is following Mark,when the ruler comes to Jesus (P), he says that his daughter is already dead – she has just died, and so requests Jesus (P) to raise her up (Matthew chapter 9).Therefore, Matthew modifies the story so the girl has been dead for a longer period of time. In Luke, there is no story of the raising of Jarius’ daughter, but there is another story of the raising of a dead man (Luke chapter 7). This man was being taken to his burial and Jesus (P) told him to rise up and he arose. In John, there is also a story of the resurrection of Lazarus (chapter 11), it is said that Lazarus had been dead for 4 days and he had been rotting. So, all gospels agree that Jesus (P) raised someone from the dead, but John is of a different character. While one may argue that in the synoptic gospels the persons in question were not really dead and that Jesus (P) was given some knowledge by God to heal and revive, or to resuscitate them – which would still be a miracle – but in John the person is definitely dead – at the point of no return. And so the story of Jesus (P) is being modified over time in the gospels as we move from Mark, to Matthew, to Luke to John. In John the story takes a new dimension which is more definable of the Christian faith. Thus, the Bible is both the inspired word of God as well as the creative work of the men who wrote these gospels.
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Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 10 September 2010 at 10:34am
	< ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><> *Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* No it is not.Bible itself speaks that it is not word of God because it contains countless contradictions.Here is example of a difference between the gospels. Story of Jarius’ daughter All four gospels agree that Jesus (P) raised someone to life. But they disagree on details.In Mark Jarius asks Jesus (P) to heal his daughter because she is at the point of death (Mark chapter 5). But the girl dies as they are on the way, but Jesus (P) insists that she is asleep and goes in and tells the girl to get up and she gets up. In Matthew,who is following Mark,when the ruler comes to Jesus (P), he says that his daughter is already dead – she has just died, and so requests Jesus (P) to raise her up (Matthew chapter 9).Therefore, Matthew modifies the story so the girl has been dead for a longer period of time. This was already explained to you but why would it be a contradiction, because the three disciples explained them each from their own prospective? If you explain the event that happened in the cave with Muhammad and the angel, you’re telling me that your fellow believer s is going to give the same exact details as you? The Gospel accounts by Mark AND Luke assure us that by the time Jesus reached her the girl was dead. The account says “While he was yet speaking, some men from the home of the presiding officer of the synagogue came and said: ‘Your daughter died! Why bother the teacher any longer?”’ (Mark 5:35; Luke 8:49) Mark and Matthew are telling the story from two different perspectives. In any event, yes the girl was dead because Jesus didn’t get to the house in time, why? Versus 19 and 22 of Matthew's account tells you, a women had a flow of blood and he healed her. Explain to me why this is a contradiction to Matthew and how Matthew would modify it when there were eyewitnesses to the account? You sound very much like the religious leaders who denied the resurrection ever took place because of their agenda. Whoever said each Apostle had to report on the same miracle or give the same exact story? These are your reasons for the contradictions; do you even believe these things ever happened? Don’t you see, Muslims are doing exactly what some of the Jews did back then?
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 11 September 2010 at 11:59am
	To Shibb Let me quote these two different stories. Mark 5 21When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22Then one of the synagogue rulers, named Jairus, came there. Seeing Jesus, he fell at his feet 23and pleaded earnestly with him, "My little daughter *is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live." 24So Jesus went with him. A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28because she thought, "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed." 29Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. 30At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my clothes?" 31"You see the people crowding against you," his disciples answered, "and yet you can ask, 'Who touched me?' " 32But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." 35While Jesus was still speaking, some men came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue ruler. "Your daughter is dead,"* they said. "Why bother the teacher any more?" 36Ignoring what they said, Jesus told the synagogue ruler, "Don't be afraid; just believe." 37He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38When they came to the home of the synagogue ruler, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep." 40But they laughed at him. After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" ). 42Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat. Matthew 9 18While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has *just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live." 19Jesus got up and went with him, and so did his disciples. 20Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21She said to herself, "If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed." 22Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment. 23When Jesus entered the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the noisy crowd, 24he said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him. 25After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up. 26News of this spread through all that region. In Mark Jarius says his daughter IS DYING* (so, she is still alive). Only later do some men from Jairus' home inform him that his daughter has died. But in Matthew Jairus says to Jesus (peace be upon him) that his daughter is ALREADY DEAD. The two are not the same. In Mark Jarius requests Jesus (peace be upon him) to HEAL his daughter. But in Matthew there is no mention of 'healing' since the daughter is ALREADY DEAD and, therefore, she only needs to be brought back to life so she can live.
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Friendship Senior Member Joined: 24 August 2008 Online Status: Online Posts: 874	Posted: 14 September 2010 at 11:54am
	Assalamu alaikum. I asked on 12/03/2009 about the significance of self-pronouncing Red-Letter edition of the New Testament. All the Red-Letter editions are in line with what Allah revealed and are acceptable to reason. My advice is to regard and treat the contents of the Bible in the manner we regard and treat the Ahadith of the holy Apostle. We should filter the truth from falsehood. Let us remember that our beloved young mother was accused of indecency! Khalid ibn Walid was accused of adultery! Ali ibn Abi Talib was raised to godhead! A'isha was described as a Mushrik by the Shi'ites! Let us mind our business. Who divided the Muslim Umma i.e. followers of Muhammad Rasulullah into sects? Friendship.
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Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 15 September 2010 at 9:28am
	*Originally posted by* *Mansoor_ali* In Mark Jarius says his daughter IS DYING (so, she is still alive). Only later do some men from Jairus' home inform him that his daughter has died. But in Matthew Jairus says to Jesus (peace be upon him) that his daughter is ALREADY DEAD. The two are not the same. As I explained these are separate people commenting on the same account. You are expecting them to explain it exactly the same as if they are one of the same person and they are not. You don't explained things the same exact way as another who has witness the same event as you have, you tell it from your perspective and they from theirs. In Mark Jarius requests Jesus (peace be upon him) to HEAL his daughter. But in Matthew there is no mention of 'healing' since the daughter is ALREADY DEAD and, therefore, she only needs to be brought back to life so she can live. In the same account you quoted from Mark, Jairus eventually died, ---35While Jesus was still speaking, some men came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue ruler. "Your daughter is dead," Jesus didn't get their in time, why? Because of healing the women who had a flow of blood. Matthew explains the event taken after the fact that she had already died., rather than before as Mark explains it while she was yet alive. 18While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has *just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live." 19Jesus got up and went with him, and so did his disciples. 23When Jesus entered the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the noisy crowd, 24he said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him. 25After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up. 26News of this spread through all that region. There is no contradiction because God's Word the Bible doesn't contradict itself imperfect men do. Mark explains the account before her death actually happened. Matthew picks up the account after she was already dead. No doubt Matthew was more impressed with the fact that Jesus was able to resurrected a person who was already dead and not just dying. The same account but to different perspectives. We did reveal the Torah (Tawrat), wherein is guidance and a light ... Q5:44 - Can Muhammad really be guided when something is corrupt? And already have we written in the Psalms (Zabur) after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.' Q21:105 - But, how could we trust that if it is corrupted? Originally posted by shibboleth Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel** (Injil), containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. Q5:46 – If corrupted why did not Jesus say they were corrupted instead of directing us to these previous Revelations? You who truly submit to Allah, ask yourself if you truly believe and follow in what the Quran says about the previous Revelations? If not are you truly submitting to the God of Abraham? Or are you killing the message as the Jews once killed the messenger and lost God's favor? Edited by Shibboleth - 15 September 2010 at 9:54am
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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