IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Is the Bible Still the Word of God?

Message

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Of
 all the web-sites out there against Christianity and Answering 
Christianity and links that have been posted here from them, you never 
heard me say anything regarding that in my posts have you? Not at all, 
truth is truth no matter where people say it. But Islam is peace? seems 
to be in fear of the Quran and Muhammad being exposed by AI or me, why? 
What is there to be afraid of? You even went to the extreme to expose 
me! If you’re going to open a thread open one on Isaac (Jesus) and 
Ishmael (Muhammad) and this GREAT nation; since it is as Muslims say 
Muhammad line of decent and see who this promise seed of Abraham is. 
It’s YOU and ME; let’s get to the bottom of this charade! You had no 
sources for Gabriel speaking to Muhammad, just your Quran and the 
hadiths the ones on trial in the first place. This time use reputable 
sources outside Islam to prove Islam and see how far you will get if 
any-where and I’ll use reputable  sources outside of Christianity. 

 You really are a lost cause, little man!  If you will notice in my responses, I specifically said that there was nothing wrong in using material from other websites, on the condition that a citation is provided.  Most of the posters here always give links to the article(s) they are citing.  You on the other hand shamelessly copy the material and insert it into your responses and act as if you know what you are talking about, when in reality, all you did was find an article from a less-than scholarly website which shared your views and pasted it on the forum.  I also said that what got to me was how you avoided mentioning your sources.  I mentioned AI several times and you never said "yes, the material is from AI".  But what was the final straw was when you said "...Answering-Islam whatever that is", which I interpreted as a flat-out denial by you of copying.  But the most important point of all this is that by copying, you provide ample evidence that you have never done actual research or read the Quran.  The irony of course is that you then try to tell Muslims that they don't know their own book, acting as if you are a scholar and trying to teach us what it says (you are always wrong of course...)!  

It also needs to be pointed out that I have refuted all the nonsense you have presented from AI.  I never ignored your copied claims.  But the point was to push you to do some actual, honest research, instead of blindly accepting whatever your fellow ignorant Christians tell you.     

You claim I had no sources for Gabriel speaking to Muhammad, but I did provide a passage from a Christian historian which showed that Muhammad (pbuh) was well-versed in the stories of the prophets, which serves as indirect evidence that he was divinely guided as the only other way for him to have been so knowledgeable was to either have access to an Arabic Bible (which archaeology shows is impossible) or that he had a human teacher (which is also not supported by the evidence).  This, in addition to the Quran and Hadiths (which you have not proven were unreliable as historical accounts), shows that Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed speak to Gabriel (as).  The other important point was to show the irony of your demands for proof, while you blindly accept the Bible's stories which lack any corroboration.  

It's funny how you say "reputable sources", when your entire premise is built on the inaccurate claims from AI!    Oh yeah, that's a reputable source [sarcasm intended]!

I would actually like to open several threads after debating with you since you have left many questions unanswered, but my concern is that you will not answer the questions and instead do what you usually do which is to make irrelevant posts in different threads which are not even related.  But if you are asking me, then sure.  Here are my suggestions, in addition to yours about Isaac and Ishmael:

1.  Did Paul believe Jesus was God? (You have repeatedly ignored the proofs from Paul's own letters which prove that he was a heretic for worshiping Jesus as God)

2.  Does the Bible say that no prophets would come after Jesus? (I showed ample evidence that there are several contradictory statements in the Bible)

3.  Why should we regard the Bible as reliable and accurate when secular history shows that the Bible has been changed and altered?  (I provided direct evidence which you did not respond to but instead resorted to the red herring argument that if the Bible is corrupted than the Quran has no foundation, a claim which is irrelevant and also incorrect)

4.  Does the Quran contain prophecies?  (I proved that it did and you did not respond)

5.  What "secular evidence" exists for the Bible?  (You have been harping about this for a few weeks but, despite my repeated requests, have not provided any evidence)

Are you ready to discuss there issues?  Open the thread on Isaac and Ishmael if you want and ask your questions, but also be ready to discuss the above issues as well!  The ball is your court, Shibbo!  

Author	Message
islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 18 August 2010 at 2:20pm
	*Originally posted by Shibboleth* Of all the web-sites out there against Christianity and Answering Christianity and links that have been posted here from them, you never heard me say anything regarding that in my posts have you? Not at all, truth is truth no matter where people say it. But Islam is peace? seems to be in fear of the Quran and Muhammad being exposed by AI or me, why? What is there to be afraid of? You even went to the extreme to expose me! If you’re going to open a thread open one on Isaac (Jesus) and Ishmael (Muhammad) and this GREAT nation; since it is as Muslims say Muhammad line of decent and see who this promise seed of Abraham is. It’s YOU and ME; let’s get to the bottom of this charade! You had no sources for Gabriel speaking to Muhammad, just your Quran and the hadiths the ones on trial in the first place. This time use reputable sources outside Islam to prove Islam and see how far you will get if any-where and I’ll use reputable sources outside of Christianity. You really are a lost cause, little man! If you will notice in my responses, I specifically said that there was nothing wrong in using material from other websites, on the condition that a citation is provided. Most of the posters here always give links to the article(s) they are citing. You on the other hand shamelessly copy the material and insert it into your responses and act as if you know what you are talking about, when in reality, all you did was find an article from a less-than scholarly website which shared your views and pasted it on the forum. I also said that what got to me was how you avoided mentioning your sources. I mentioned AI several times and you never said "yes, the material is from AI". But what was the final straw was when you said "...Answering-Islam whatever that is", which I interpreted as a flat-out denial by you of copying. But the most important point of all this is that by copying, you provide ample evidence that you have never done actual research or read the Quran. The irony of course is that you then try to tell Muslims that they don't know their own book, acting as if you are a scholar and trying to teach us what it says (you are always wrong of course...)! It also needs to be pointed out that I have refuted all the nonsense you have presented from AI. I never ignored your copied claims. But the point was to push you to do some actual, honest research, instead of blindly accepting whatever your fellow ignorant Christians tell you. You claim I had no sources for Gabriel speaking to Muhammad, but I did provide a passage from a Christian historian which showed that Muhammad (pbuh) was well-versed in the stories of the prophets, which serves as indirect evidence that he was divinely guided as the only other way for him to have been so knowledgeable was to either have access to an Arabic Bible (which archaeology shows is impossible) or that he had a human teacher (which is also not supported by the evidence). This, in addition to the Quran and Hadiths (which you have not proven were unreliable as historical accounts), shows that Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed speak to Gabriel (as). The other important point was to show the irony of your demands for proof, while you blindly accept the Bible's stories which lack any corroboration. It's funny how you say "reputable sources", when your entire premise is built on the inaccurate claims from AI! Oh yeah, that's a reputable source [sarcasm intended]! I would actually like to open several threads after debating with you since you have left many questions unanswered, but my concern is that you will not answer the questions and instead do what you usually do which is to make irrelevant posts in different threads which are not even related. But if you are asking me, then sure. Here are my suggestions, in addition to yours about Isaac and Ishmael: 1. Did Paul believe Jesus was God? (You have repeatedly ignored the proofs from Paul's own letters which prove that he was a heretic for worshiping Jesus as God) 2. Does the Bible say that no prophets would come after Jesus? (I showed ample evidence that there are several contradictory statements in the Bible) 3. Why should we regard the Bible as reliable and accurate when secular history shows that the Bible has been changed and altered? (I provided direct evidence which you did not respond to but instead resorted to the red herring argument that if the Bible is corrupted than the Quran has no foundation, a claim which is irrelevant and also incorrect) 4. Does the Quran contain prophecies? (I proved that it did and you did not respond) 5. What "secular evidence" exists for the Bible? (You have been harping about this for a few weeks but, despite my repeated requests, have not provided any evidence) Are you ready to discuss there issues? Open the thread on Isaac and Ishmael if you want and ask your questions, but also be ready to discuss the above issues as well! The ball is your court, Shibbo!
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 18 August 2010 at 9:00pm
	Shibbo, you should listen what others are saying beside yourself. You are not understanding rather repeating what you have in your head. Simple reasoning for God sending each prophet, one after the other. You need to understand that, why was God sending prophets with message of Worshiping Him and following His commands? If that was enough only at once, I am sure God would not have sent His message so many times. Now, God sending line of prophets with books did not mean that God was unable to keep His word secure and pure, we agree that God is All Capable. But it were the people, the individuals that were at fault when they twisted the meanings of God's words to their own interest. Sounds familiar, we see people do that all the times. We know that in history, there were people who were powerful enough, and who control things to the point, that no one could oppose them, like for example, the Jews at the time of Jesus. Even the Bible says something similar that those in charge of God's words actually altered it to serve their purpose. Jeremiah 8:8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? Because God so loved His servants that He provided for them true and pure guidance again and again in form of revelations through His prophets again and again. And for the last time through prophet Mohammed (pbuh) in the form of the Quran, the Final Testament. Pure guidance for those who want to know and serve their Creator in truth toward God's forgiveness and eternal reward, the Paradise. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 19 August 2010 at 12:27pm
	< ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><> *Originally posted by islamispeace* You claim I had no sources for Gabriel speaking to Muhammad, but I did provide a passage from a Christian historian which showed that Muhammad (pbuh) was well-versed in the stories of the prophets A passage not a source! Proof still lingering somewhere which is why this thread was opened in the first place, everything else is irrelevant. *Originally posted by islamispeace* , which serves as indirect evidence that he was divinely guided as the only other way for him to have been so knowledgeable was to either have access to an Arabic Bible (which archaeology shows is impossible) or that he had a human teacher (which is also not supported by the evidence). Key word Indirect - not in a direct course or path; deviating from a straight line; roundabout: Christians, Coptic or otherwise as well as Christian tradition was around. Waraqa bin naufal (527-639) was a Christian. Furthermore Christianity had already been established 600 years before Muhammad. What you’ve presented thus far has been speculative at best. Proof still lingering! *Originally posted by islamispeace* This, in addition to the Quran and Hadiths (which you have not proven were unreliable as historical accounts), shows that Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed speak to Gabriel (as). The other important point was to show the irony of your demands for proof, while you blindly accept the Bible's stories which lack any corroboration. Circular reasoning again, I know you can’t help it but it is all you really have to prove Islam. You cannot prove Islam by turning to Islam to prove its existence! *Originally posted by islamispeace* It's funny how you say "reputable sources", when your entire premise is built on the inaccurate claims from AI! Oh yeah, that's a reputable source [sarcasm intended] Really! And still as you presented here you have not prove whatever sources I use wrong, using Answering Islam or otherwise. *Originally posted by islamispeace* I would actually like to open several threads after debating with you since you have left many questions unanswered, but my concern is that you will not answer the questions and instead do what you usually do which is to make irrelevant posts in different threads which are not even related. But if you are asking me, then sure. Here are my suggestions, in addition to yours about Isaac and Ishmael: 1. Did Paul believe Jesus was God? (You have repeatedly ignored the proofs from Paul's own letters which prove that he was a heretic for worshiping Jesus as God) Like I said before, NO! 2. Does the Bible say that no prophets would come after Jesus? (I showed ample evidence that there are several contradictory statements in the Bible) NO, FALSE PROPHETS! 3. Why should we regard the Bible as reliable and accurate when secular history shows that the Bible has been changed and altered? (I provided direct evidence which you did not respond to but instead resorted to the red herring argument that if the Bible is corrupted than the Quran has no foundation, a claim which is irrelevant and also incorrect) The Quran tells you to! 4. Does the Quran contain prophecies? (I proved that it did and you did not respond) Irrelevant, Nostradamus did to! Is he a true prophet? 5. What "secular evidence" exists for the Bible? (You have been harping about this for a few weeks but, despite my repeated requests, have not provided any evidence) I’ll give you better archeological evidence, The Dead Sea Scrolls! Are you ready to discuss there issues? Open the thread on Isaac and Ishmael if you want and ask your questions, but also be ready to discuss the above issues as well! The ball is your court, Shibbo! My court when I’m on a Muslim site? Don’t make me laugh!!!!!! Open up any thread you like BUSTA! Edited by Shibboleth - 19 August 2010 at 12:30pm
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 20 August 2010 at 12:15pm
	RESPONSE TO SHIBBO: A passage not a source! Proof still lingering somewhere which is why this thread was opened in the first place, everything else is irrelevant. What are you talking about? The passage is the source! It was from the writings of a Christian historian from the 7th century, no more than 30 years after the death of Muhammad (pbuh). I even gave you a link before! Key word Indirect - not in a direct course or path; deviating from a straight line; roundabout: This is only semantics. Indirect or direct, it is still evidence, and more than that, it is "secular" evidence! Sebeos was not a Muslim. He was only writing what he had observed or heard about the early history of Islam. By mentioning that Muhammad (pbuh) was well-versed in Mosaic history, he was "indirectly" proving that Muhammad (pbuh) was divinely guided. It was probably not Sebeos' intention to do so, but when we consider that there is no historical evidence that Muhammad (pbuh) had access to biblical documents or prolonged exposure to oral tradition, Sebeos indirectly and unwittingly proved that Muhammad (pbuh) was a true prophet. He even proved that Muhammad (pbuh) did not deviate from the teachings of the previous prophets, something you have claimed he did in the other thread. This is proof-positive, but the little man in you continues to harp about evidence! Christians, Coptic or otherwise as well as Christian tradition was around. Waraqa bin naufal (527-639) was a Christian. Yet there is no evidence that he was taught a detailed history of the prophets. You are only committing a non-sequitur fallacy. One could expect perhaps that he knew the "basics" just from the fact that there were Christians around (and having a vague idea of the stories), but it would not explain how he knew so much more as to give detailed accounts. Furthermore Christianity had already been established 600 years before Muhammad. What you’ve presented thus far has been speculative at best. Proof still lingering! But not as much in Arabia. There were not many Christians around in Arabia. It was primarily a pagan society. Circular reasoning again, I know you can’t help it but it is all you really have to prove Islam. You cannot prove Islam by turning to Islam to prove its existence! Look up the meaning of "circular reasoning" before making a fool of yourself. I said that the evidence I presented in addition to the Quran and Hadiths corroborate the Islamic traditions. In other words, I showed an example where secular history corroborates the Islamic traditions. Furthermore, I challenged you to disprove the reliability of the Quran and Hadiths, which you have failed to do. Your argument against the Quran and Hadiths is based on your own religious bias, and not on any logical or historical precedence. Really! And still as you presented here you have not prove whatever sources I use wrong, using Answering Islam or otherwise. Of course, this is nonsense as I thoroughly refuted their claims. What you say is irrelevant. People can judge for themselves. < ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><> Like I said before, NO! Then you are just ignorant or in denial, as I provided direct examples from Paul's own letters proving you wrong and proving that he was a heretic! You never offered an explanation of the verses I provided, but instead initially ignored them and my repeated attempts to get you to answer. Your only response was "no, Paul did not believe Jesus was God" even though the evidence showed that he did. I think we have a winner for the thread I should open! < ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><> NO, FALSE PROPHETS! Wrong again, since Agabus is never referred to as a "false prophet" in the New Testament. Furthermore, you provide no explanation for the contradictory teachings in the Bible about the finality of prophethood. This will be a second good thread to open. < ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><> The Quran tells you to! Regardless of whether this red herring is true or not (it is not), you still have not responded to the overwhelming evidence of the Bible's corruption. And let me say this again: Don't tell Muslims what the Quran says. You are the last person on earth who should do so, as your credentials are laughable at best! < ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><> Irrelevant, Nostradamus did to! Is he a true prophet? This is a false analogy since Nostradamus' "prophecies" are extremely vague and actually some have been proven to be flat-out wrong. For instance, he claimed that a "great king of terror" would come from the sky in 1999. This never happened. Who was this great king of terror? Furthermore, the Quran's prophecies came true. You have no explanation for this, except perhaps your own religious bias. Further still, the prophecies are just one of the proofs. Considered together with the miracles and the teachings, they prove that Muhammad (pbuh) was a true prophet. < ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><> I’ll give you better archeological evidence, The Dead Sea Scrolls! Yeah, I have head this before from Christians. But when the issue is further analyzed, the argument falls flat on its face! But before I delve into the matter, I would like you give specific reasons why you feel the Dead Sea Scrolls serve as evidence for the Bible? What kind of evidence do they provide? How do they prove that the Bible is the word of God? My court when I’m on a Muslim site? Don’t make me laugh!!!!!! Open up any thread you like BUSTA! See you there!
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 20 August 2010 at 9:10pm
	Shibbo, here is ome evidence of how people changed God's word: "Jeremiah 8:8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 28 August 2010 at 3:52pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* Shibbo, here is ome evidence of how people changed God's word: "Jeremiah 8:8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Hasan To honeto Topic:Is the Bible Still the Word of God? No it is not.Bible itself speaks that it is not word of God because it contains countless contradictions.Here is example of a difference between the gospels. Story of Jarius’ daughter All four gospels agree that Jesus (P) raised someone to life. But they disagree on details.In Mark Jarius asks Jesus (P) to heal his daughter because she is at the point of death (Mark chapter 5). But the girl dies as they are on the way, but Jesus (P) insists that she is asleep and goes in and tells the girl to get up and she gets up. In Matthew,who is following Mark,when the ruler comes to Jesus (P), he says that his daughter is already dead – she has just died, and so requests Jesus (P) to raise her up (Matthew chapter 9).Therefore, Matthew modifies the story so the girl has been dead for a longer period of time. In Luke, there is no story of the raising of Jarius’ daughter, but there is another story of the raising of a dead man (Luke chapter 7). This man was being taken to his burial and Jesus (P) told him to rise up and he arose. In John, there is also a story of the resurrection of Lazarus (chapter 11), it is said that Lazarus had been dead for 4 days and he had been rotting. So, all gospels agree that Jesus (P) raised someone from the dead, but John is of a different character. While one may argue that in the synoptic gospels the persons in question were not really dead and that Jesus (P) was given some knowledge by God to heal and revive, or to resuscitate them – which would still be a miracle – but in John the person is definitely dead – at the point of no return. And so the story of Jesus (P) is being modified over time in the gospels as we move from Mark, to Matthew, to Luke to John. In John the story takes a new dimension which is more definable of the Christian faith. Thus, the Bible is both the inspired word of God as well as the creative work of the men who wrote these gospels.
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Shibboleth Guest Group Joined: 06 August 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 01 September 2010 at 10:59am
	< ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><> *Originally posted by* *Mansoor_ali* ] Story of Jarius’ daughter We did reveal the Torah (Tawrat), wherein is guidance and a light ... Q5:44 - Can Muhammad really be guided when something is corrupt? And already have we written in the Psalms (Zabur) after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.' Q21:105 - But, how could we trust that if it is corrupted? Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel (Injil), containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. Q5:46 – If corrupted why Jesus didn’t say they were corrupted instead of directing us to these Revelations? Because YOU lack comprehension and insight on the previous revelations doesn’t mean it’s corrupt! Believe what Allah tells you or like the rest here you only totally submit when it’s convenience. Islam, wow!!!! You too have no faith in the Revelations of Allah, starting with the Torah, you rather believe the junk mail that came centuries later to confuse and condemn God’s message rather than believe even what your own messenger tells you let alone Allah, incredible! For us to continue show me the correct and original text of these scriptures and what it SHOULD say can you or anyone here finally do that?
	“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 01 September 2010 at 8:58pm
	Salam Mansoor, that's what I am saying too, that Bible in its present form is transformed word of God. The quote actually was in support of that argument: "Jeremiah 8:8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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