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Message Icon Topic: Is the Bible Still the Word of God? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Moses
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Quote Moses Replybullet Posted: 07 September 2009 at 7:21am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

"Have you ever try to understand several side of a shape? Do u know, each side hiding the other, because this is one thing, and you will not find the truth if you don’t try for understanding all of sides.

All of prophets are agree to each other, people are fighting to each other for them!

Law is not against the love, and love is not disappearing the law. They are one program in righteousness, for salvation. Do you need that?"

 
Let's try to get an understanding of all sides just by using the Bible.
 
Biblically God states that His covenants: the Law, are perpetual and everlasting. Jesus reaffirms this by following the Law himself, telling his disciples to follow the Law, and stating he did not come to change the Law. After Jesus dies, Paul abrogates the Law, making it null and void.
 
Even if, as some Christians say: Jesus fufilled the Law. In what way did he fulfil the Law? By his own words: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
 
Everything was "not accomplished" because he did not fulfil all of the prophesies. That is why Christians claim there will be a "second coming". So that Jesus can accomplish everything that was left undone.
 
Jesus then goes on to say:
 
Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?

Quran says:إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّبَعُوكَ فَوۡقَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓاْ إِلَىٰ يَوۡمِ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ‌ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَىَّ مَرۡجِعُڪُمۡ فَأَحۡڪُمُ بَيۡنَكُمۡ فِيمَا كُنتُمۡ فِيهِ تَخۡتَلِفُونَ
means : realy I made you dead and raise you up toward me
then its prefered to not say Jesus dies,  because God raised him up toward himself and he is alive.
Neither Paul nor Jesus did ignore the law. just viceversa! They are coming to the most important and the second law, which in religious comunities had been forgotten:love your neighbor as well as yourself.....and they explain us who is the "neighbor", everybody who needs you and your purse and your help.
If somebody can do it , then he will not kill the other people, he will not overrun on the others and he will not do any bad things in a society. then you say we should ask him to not overrun on the other people or ask him to not kill the others?!!
and they explain us the first law: love your God , with all of your heart.... and who can love his God with all of his heart and make sins and bad jobs in presence of him?!! are you about asking him to not sin in presence of God?!!
laws of God teach us which is bad and which is good, but fullfieling of the law means you are doing the first which is the highest and the most expanded law in the human life, after that , you are in a situation that Quran says:(4-125)
وَمَنۡ أَحۡسَنُ دِينً۬ا مِّمَّنۡ أَسۡلَمَ وَجۡهَهُ ۥ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحۡسِنٌ۬ وَٱتَّبَعَ مِلَّةَ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ حَنِيفً۬ا‌ۗ وَٱتَّخَذَ ٱللَّهُ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ خَلِيلاً۬ (١٢٥)
Who is better in religion than he who surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good (to men) and followeth the tradition of Abraham, the upright? Allah (Himself) chose Abraham for friend. (125)
was Abraham doer of the law?! which law in his time?!! no he loved God and then he did the best for him.
 as you see , such teaching is not from human, but from the designer of laws.
Now please think in yourself as well: does real Christians love each other and the other people or not? (don`t  think about bad people who hanging a cross on and show you they are real Christian but do the worst things!)
If you find them kind and avoided from sins, accept their deeds and believe that Paul and Jesus did not ask them to do more.


Edited by icforumadmin - 07 September 2009 at 3:08pm
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 07 September 2009 at 9:46pm

Yall have to be kidding me, right? That’s the best you can do? There is nothing that any one of you showed that the Bible is corrupt. When those versus are read in English, Hebrew or Arabic the meaning is still basically the same unless of course you read them in Arabic and write them in English as you did. You read it in whatever tongue you speak. Realize a major factor that has helped the Bible to become mankind’s best-known book is its availability in many languages. The Bible must speak in the language of the people in order to speak to their hearts. As you can readily see the message is still the same, with the same thought. See for yourself http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/doc_bible.htm or the one I use http://www.waterlive.org/

 

Job 12:6 The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly.

 

خِيَامُ الْمُخَرِّبِينَ مُسْتَرِيحَةٌ،

وَالَّذِينَ يُغِيظُونَ اللهَ مُطْمَئِنُّونَ،

الَّذِينَ يَأْتُونَ بِإِلهِهِمْ فِي يَدِهِمْ!

 

Job 31:10 Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her.

 

فَلْتَطْحَنِ امْرَأَتِي لآخَرَ، وَلْيَنْحَنِ

عَلَيْهَا آخَرُونَ.

 

**Psalms 83:18** That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

 

وَيَعْلَمُوا أَنَّكَ اسْمُكَ يَهْوَهُ

وَحْدَكَ، الْعَلِيُّ عَلَى كُلِّ الأَرْضِ.

 

Do you read Hebrew or Greek? If not, you cannot read the early handwritten copies of the Bible, some of which are still in existence. Therefore, for you to read the Bible, someone had to put the words into a language you know, like Arabic for instance. This translating from one language to another has made it possible for more persons to read God’s Word. For example, about 300 years before Jesus lived on earth, Greek became the language most people began to speak. So the Hebrew Scriptures were put into Greek, beginning in 280 B.C.E. This early translation was called the “Septuagint.”

6:34. Walaqad kuththibat rusulun min qablika fasabaroo AAala ma kuththiboo waoothoo hatta atahum nasruna wala mubaddila likalimati Allahi walaqad jaaka min naba-i almursaleena

10:64. Lahumu albushra fee alhayati alddunya wafee al-akhirati la tabdeela likalimati Allahi thalika huwa alfawzu alAAatheemu

 

18:27. Waotlu ma oohiya ilayka min kitabi rabbika la mubaddila likalimatihi walan tajida min doonihi multahadan

 

Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikra wa-inna lahu lahafithoona

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 07 September 2009 at 10:24pm


 

BTW, Mo, Jesus fulfilled the law by dying on the STAKE and being resurrected. If you knew anything about the law you would have known it was in preparation of Jesus, the “lamb of God”

Hebrews 10:1-5 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore? 3 To the contrary, by these sacrifices there is a reminding of sins from year to year, 4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.

5 Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.

Again your incorrect Mo, Paul does not abrogate or cancel (Unlike the Quran, you will not find abrogating in God’s Holy Bible) but the Law was fulfilled, Judo-Christians were now no longer under the law covenant. It seems that you have been misinformed .
 

“”Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?””

You are waaaaay of course again Mo, after Jesus died a sacrificial death the law was fulfilled, completed. Paul was a Jew by birth but followed and practiced Christianity like Jesus 12 apostles and his many followers.   



Edited by Shibboleth - 07 September 2009 at 10:25pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2009 at 7:16am

"Again your incorrect Mo, Paul does not abrogate or cancel (Unlike the Quran, you will not find abrogating in God’s Holy Bible) but the Law was fulfilled, Judo-Christians were now no longer under the law covenant. It seems that you have been misinformed .
 

“”Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?””

You are waaaaay of course again Mo, after Jesus died a sacrificial death the law was fulfilled, completed. Paul was a Jew by birth but followed and practiced Christianity like Jesus 12 apostles and his many followers."

Actually I wrote this. At the time of Jesus there was no such thing as Judeo-Christian. There were no Christians. Jesus was not a Christian, he was a Jew.
 
I would ask that you simply correct me and put me back on course by posting the verses of the Bible where JESUS told his followers to abandon the Law. Then post the verses where JESUS stated that he was God. Then post the verses where GOD states He is a Triune or anything about the Trinity, period.   This should be very easy.



Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 08 September 2009 at 7:17am
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2009 at 7:23am

**Psalms 83:18** That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

For a starter, Jehovah is NOT the correct name of God in the Tanakh. That would appear to be a glaring mistake.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2009 at 7:29am

"BTW, Mo, Jesus fulfilled the law by dying on the STAKE and being resurrected. If you knew anything about the law you would have known it was in preparation of Jesus, the “lamb of God”

Once again, point out the verses in the Old Testament that prophesy that God would send himself to earth in human form to be a blood sacrifice so that his perpetual covenants would no longer matter. And the verses that state that God gave the Laws to Moses ONLY to prepare for the coming of Jesus. 

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2009 at 7:43am

Hebrews 10:1-5 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore? 3 To the contrary, by these sacrifices there is a reminding of sins from year to year, 4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.

5 Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.

I don't think you can use Hebrews, probably written by Paul, to make the argument that Jesus fulfills the Law therefore God's covenants are abrogated. The whole point of the Pauline doctrine was to get rid of the Law. To Gentile-ize the new religion.
 
Surely, if as you say, the Law was merely a preparation for Jesus to die on the stake, then you must have scriptures from the Old Testament to prove your point.
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Quote Meditations Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2009 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Shibboleth


. A report published in 1971 shows that there are possibly 6,000 handwritten copies containing all or part of the Hebrew Scriptures;


Report by who ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth


 the oldest dates back to the third century B.C.E. Of the Christian Greek Scriptures, there are some 5,000 in Greek, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

The oldest is over 200 years from Jesus times and you consider this a proof

For us muslims , this no where near good enough to be accepted as authenticate source

Muslims scholars rejects hadiths that have far better authenticity than 200 years gap

Originally posted by Shibboleth


More than 13,000 manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures are said to be available today. A study of them shows that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has also been preserved accurately, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

Which language did Jesus speak ? and Which language were the scriptures sent with ?


Are you familiar with the greek proverb that says

" IF YOU WANT TO BE A LIAR , BE A TRANSLATOR "

Originally posted by Shibboleth


For example, the Institute for New Testament Textual Studies in Germany has made about 95 percent of its approximately 5,300 handwritten copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures available for scientific study, either on microfilm or in photographs. A comparison of them shows just how exact the transmission of the Bible text down to our day has been. The interval of time between the original writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures and the writing of the oldest extant papyrus manuscripts is very short, not more than 25 years.

Again way far from good enough for authenticity of a text with that importance

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Nevertheless, some still believe that the present-day Torah and Injīl have been corrupted and cannot be trusted. But if this were true, when did this falsification take place?


Throughout the years this been happening , before Quran was revealed , after it was revealed, and in our moderns times

Did you ever wonder why there're 'NEW EDITIONS" of the bible, while there're none of the Qur'an ?


Originally posted by Shibboleth

From a Qur’ānic viewpoint, no corruption could possibly have occurred BEFORE writing of the Qur’ān because many Qur’ānic verses call for faith in the Torah and the Injīl.

This is a very false statement, Qur'an clearly states in several occasions that Torah and Injil have been corrupted , as was pointed to you in another post

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stated this , if you believe in Qur'an's authenticity , then you believe What He said

If you don't believe in Qur'an authenticity's, then the Qur'anic viewpoint is of no importance to you

So which one is it?

(For example, see Al-Baqarah [2]:136; Āl ‘Imrān [3]:84; Al-Nisā’ [4]:136.) The Qur’ān also recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injīl, saying: “If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.” (Al-Naḥl [16]:43; Al-Anbiyā’ [21]:7) Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Qur’ānic verses call out to “People of the Book” (the Torah and the Injīl) to turn back to their books. (For instance, see Al-Mā’idah [5]:50, 71.) Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books!

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Likewise, no corruption could possibly have occurred AFTER the writing of the Qur’ān, since a comparison of our modern-day Holy Scriptures with manuscripts of the Torah and the Injīl written FOUR or FIVE centuries before the writing of the Qur’ān shows that there have been no changes, or corruption.

I suggest you revise this statement, a small revision of the current version of the bible and a revision that's only 200-300 years old , would show you clearly the differences

Originally posted by Shibboleth

These manuscripts are available in public libraries and museums.

Which public libraries , and which museums ?

do you have any document that dates back to the times of Jesus ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

If you have a copy of the Bible, you are far from alone. In whole or in part, the Bible has been published in more than 2,300 languages and thus is available to more than 90 percent of the world’s population. On the average, more than a million Bibles are distributed each week! Billions of copies of either the whole Bible or part of it have been produced. Surely, there is no other book like the Bible.

There could be millions and millions copies printed , if you go to any hotel room in the USA there's a copy of the bible

But who reads it, how many times ?

who reads the bible at least 5 times a day like muslims read the Quran ?

Who memorizes the bible by heart like Muslims do ? 

Qur'an is the only book that's being memorized by heart by millions of people around the world

Originally posted by Shibboleth

DO WE HAVE THE BIBLE IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM TODAY? UNEQUIVOCALLY, YES!

IS THERE AN “ORIGINAL BOOK” THAT SHOWS THE CORRUPTION OF GOD’S HOLY WRITINGS? EMPHATICALLY NO!

All the different copies of the bible and the differences between it shows the corruption

Originally posted by Shibboleth

EVEN THE QUR’AN TESTIFIES TO THAT FACT!

Where does the Qur'an say that the bible/OT is not corrupted ? this is a very false statement

Regards


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