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Shibboleth
 
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Topic: Is the Bible Still the Word of God?
    Posted: 06 August 2009 at 1:09pm

 Sometimes a different objection is raised. Some feel that the Bible was the Word of God, but it has been distorted and corrupted by men so that now we can no longer trust it. Can this be true?

 Let us repeat a verse from the Qur’an. But now we will discuss it from a different angle. “After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.  (The Qur'an also accepts Jesus as the son of God,just as it does Adam)

 If, at the time these words were written, the Bible had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel ‘judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein’? Thus believers in the Qur’an accept that the Bible was uncorrupted at the time the Qur’an was written (about one thousand three hundred years ago). On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today. When comparing our modern Bibles with these ancient manuscripts, it is easily seen that there is no significant difference. The Bible is substantially the same. Certainly, the Bible has not changed since those words were written in the Qur’an saying that in the Gospel “there is guidance and light.”

 Thus, a person who believes in the Qur’an will agree that the Bible has not been corrupted and that it is still the Word of God. But even for people who do not believe in the Qur’an there is abundant proof that the Bible has not been corrupted by men since its original writing. What proof? Ancient manuscripts.

 Regarding the preserving of the Greek Scriptures (Injil) until our day, a scientist pointed out: “The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed.” (The Bible and Archaeology, by Sir Frederic Kenyon) Sir Frederic Kenyon is here expressing the widely accepted fact that we can read in the Greek Scriptures (Injil) substantially what the original writers, under inspiration, put there. There has been no gross distortion.

 Regarding the Hebrew Scriptures (Tevrat), the external proof is equally strong that they have been preserved faithfully. The ancient copyists of those scriptures were renowned for their accuracy. Today there are seventeen hundred ancient manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Bible in existence, and comparison shows them to be substantially the same. In 1947, some very ancient manuscripts were discovered in the region of the Dead Sea. They included some that were a thousand years older than any hitherto extant. Yet a comparison of these ancient manuscripts with our modern Bible shows little significant variation, especially with regard to teaching and doctrine. After examining these newly discovered ancient documents, Professor Millar Burrows said: “The general reader and student of the Bible may be satisfied to note that nothing in all this changes our understanding of the religious teachings of the Bible . . . The essential truth and the will of God revealed in the Bible, however, have been preserved unchanged through all the vicissitudes in the transmission of the text.”—The Dead Sea Scrolls, by Millar Burrows.

 Is this not reasonable? Should we not expect that the Almighty God would be able to preserve his Word uncorrupted? The Bible itself says: “The green grass has dried up, the blossom has withered; but as for the word of our God, it will last to time indefinite.”—Isaiah 40:8.

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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2009 at 5:33am

Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

 
(I won't get into the logical fallacies required to justify that belief.)
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2009 at 10:43am
Originally posted by Natassia

Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

 
(I won't get into the logical fallacies required to justify that belief.)
alaikum salaam
jeremiah 8:8
 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
       for we have the law of the LORD,"
       when actually the lying pen of the scribes
       has handled it falsely?
 
he thought it was full of lies also
leland
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2009 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Natassia

Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

 
(I won't get into the logical fallacies required to justify that belief.)
salaams
and what of Paul?   Jesus reafirms the law and states in Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
but Paul nullifies the law when he states
Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
also
Galatians 3:23
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
 
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

So how do you think jesus {p} would think of paul making the law dissapear?

leland

 


Edited by Nazarene - 22 August 2009 at 11:20am
love for all conquers all
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2009 at 8:01pm

"Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

WOW! Putting the 'cart' before the 'horse'

Real science!



Are you a true Muslim or a Muhammadan?


Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11

 The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.  
 Sura 6:34; 10:34 
All these above texts presuppose the availability of the true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad's day.
 -Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71       
A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46
The Quran makes no distinction between God's revelations
Sura 2:136 

Many luminaries of 'Islam' believe the Bible to be true:

 

1. Ali al Tabari (d 855) who accepted the Gospel texts

 

2. Al Bukhari (810-870)

 

3. Al Mas'udi (956)

 

4. Abu Ali husain bin Sina (1037)

 

5. Al Ghazali (1111) who did not accept his teachings

 

6. Ibn Khaldun (1406) ditto.

  It is not up to the People of the Book to prove their Book is uncorrupted but up to the Muhammadans to do so based on any 'original' book that would show these corruptions.

I'll wait for you or anyone to produce that book with the corruptions, or does it just sound nice to repeat what you heard over and over again without even asking or showing a shred of evidence to support your argument.

Thank you


Edited by Shibboleth - 22 August 2009 at 8:17pm
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2009 at 7:29am
salaams shibboleth
 
  i give the bible itself:
 JEREMIAH 88 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
       for we have the law of the LORD,"
       when actually the lying pen of the scribes
       has handled it falsely
?
jeremiah was accusing them of " padding the books" so to speak!
leland
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Quote _ALI_ Replybullet Posted: 26 August 2009 at 11:02am

Salam Shibboleth

"Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

WOW! Putting the 'cart' before the 'horse'

Real science!

Actually that is the real reason why Muslims believe the Bible to be corrupt. Even if there were no contradictions, no scientific errors, no historical inconsistencies in the Bible, Muslims would still believe Bible to be corrupt because it contradicts the Quran. But your cart/horse analogy does not work here. A better explanation is that Muslims believe Quran to be the word of God for various reasons. So if any book contradicts it, it has to be wrong.

Are you a true Muslim or a Muhammadan?
What's a Muhammadan?

Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11

These verses say that Quran confirms previous revelations, not the Bible. There is a difference

The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.  
 Sura 6:34; 10:34 
. Let’s read the context of the first verse. 
006.033 قَدْ نَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَيَحْزُنُكَ الَّذِي يَقُولُونَ فَإِنَّهُمْ لا
 يُكَذِّبُونَكَ وَلَكِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ
 بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ يَجْحَدُونَ
006.033 We know indeed the grief which their words do cause
 thee: It is not thee they reject: it is the signs of Allah
, which the wicked contemn.
Al-Qur'an, 006.033 (Al-Anaam [Cattle, Livestock])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software 
v2.910
Here Allah is talking to prophet Muhammad. An Islamic scholar Maududi 
explains the following verse 
The fact is that before the Prophet Muhammad (peace be on 
him) began to preach the message of God, all his people 
regarded him as truthful and trustworthy and had full 
confidence in his veracity. Only after he had begun to 
preach the message of God did they call him a liar.
Now imagine one moment you’re hailed as a truthful and respectable person,
 the next day people start labelling you as a deluded person and start mocking 
you. That happened to prophet Muhammad. In these verses, God is trying to 
comfort prophet Muhammad. 

006.034 وَلَقَدْ كُذِّبَتْ رُسُلٌ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ فَصَبَرُوا عَلَى

مَا كُذِّبُوا وَأُوذُوا حَتَّى أَتَاهُمْ نَصْرُنَا وَلا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَكَ مِنْ نَبَإِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ
006.034 Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs,

Here Allah says that it has happened before. Prophets have been derided and 
they exhibited patience in the face of rejection.
 until Our aid did reach them: 
Now God says that He always helps His messengers. Then He says:
there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast
 thou received some account of those messengers.
As you can see from the context, the word of Allah here does not mean Torah
, Gospel etc. It simply means that no one can change the law of God regarding 
the clash of truth and falsehood. The Explanation given by Maududi is 
The point emphasized here is that no one has the power to 
change God's Law regarding the conflict between Truth and 
falsehood. Lovers of Truth must of necessity pass through 
trials and persecution so as to be gradually tempered. 
Their endurance, their honastyy of conviction, their 
readiness to sacrifice and to undertake all risk for their
 cause, the strength of their faith and the extent of 
their trust in God must be tested. They must pass through
 this phase of persecution to develop in thenselves those
 qualities which can be developed nowhere else but on 
earth. They are also required to defeat the forces of 
ignorance by virtue of their moral excellence and the 
nobility of their character. Only after they have 
established their moral superiority over their adversaries
 will God's help arrive. No one can secure that help before
 hand.(www.tafheem.net)
010.034 قُلْ هَلْ مِنْ شُرَكَائِكُمْ مَنْ يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ قُلِ اللَّهُ يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ فَأَنَّى تُؤْفَكُونَ
010.034 Say: "Of your 'partners', can any originate creation and repeat it?" 
Say:  "It is Allah Who originates creation and repeats it: then how are ye 
deluded away (from the truth)?"
Allah is telling prophet Muhammad to ask the pagans of Makkah whether their 
gods had the capability to create something from nothing and then reproduce 
it? Polytheists generally consider even their gods to be limited in power. 
This verse underlines that fact. No reference to the gospel/torah here. 

 

I think you are referring to 10:94, not 10:34. But before discussing that, let me give you the Muslim perspective of the Bible. We believe that those parts of the Bible which match with the Quran may be God’s word e.g prophecies regarding prophet Muhammad. Those parts which conflict Quran are certainly not God’s word e.g God resting on the seventh day (in Islam God does not require rest). Those portions which neither conflict with Quran nor agree with it may or may not be God’s word. But as a whole, Muslims do not require the Bible since we have the Quran which is complete guidance to us. Now as for the context of Chapter 10 of Quran, it tells us the story of  prophet Moses in the context. It was impossible for an illiterate man in the middle of the desert to be aware of that story. So after the narration, Allah tells us that prophet Muhammad is not making this story up. You can go and ask the Jews about prophet Moses. They will tell you pretty much the same story.

 

010.094 فَإِنْ كُنْتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِمَّا أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَلا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

010.094 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee:  the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Al-Qur'an, 010.094 (Yunus [Jonah])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

This verse does not say that no one can change God’s word. I have no idea how you came up with that.

A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46

Completely agree here. We should believe in all previous revelations of God and not their corrupted and unauthentic forms.

The Quran makes no distinction between God's revelations
Sura 2:136 

Let me take a stab in the dark. You have never read Quran in context. You have never read these verses carefully or in context. Am I right?

 

002.136 قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ لا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

002.136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

 

Al-Qur'an, 002.136 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

 

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Here Allah is telling us not to distinguish between messengers, meaning I cannot say that I believe in Muhammad but I don’t believe in Jesus. Where did you get the idea that Quran makes no distinctions between God’s revelations?

 

1. Ali al Tabari (d 855) who accepted the Gospel texts

 

2. Al Bukhari (810-870)

 

3. Al Mas'udi (956)

 

4. Abu Ali husain bin Sina (1037)

 

5. Al Ghazali (1111) who did not accept his teachings

 

6. Ibn Khaldun (1406) ditto

Even I will accept the ”Gospel text” if the gospel here is the gospel of Jesus revealed by God. But by gospel if you mean gospels of Mark, Luke, John, Mathew then all Muslims along with many historians agree that these scriptures have been corrupted and we don’t even know who their true authors are.

In reality it is not up to the People of the Book to 
prove their Book is uncorrupted 
I agree. Why should you be given a task which is 
impossible?
but up to the Muhammadans to do so based on any 'original'
 book that would show these corruptions.
I’m not sure what you mean by “Muhammadans”. But anyway, Muslims don’t
 need to disprove the Bible by presenting another original book which has been
 lost by Christians. They can simply do that by pointing out scientific and
 mathematical errors, internal contradictions
(http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/contradictions_in_nt.htm) , and verses which implicate prophets committing adultery (Gen 19:33-36 here prophet lot drank wine and slept with his daughter, twice. How can prophets, best of human beings commit incest? This clearly proves that this account of Lot along with many other verses of the Bible is forgery).
I'll wait for you or anyone to produce that book with the 
corruptions, 
You are waiting for us to produce a book with corruptions? Well there is the 
Bible…..
 or does it just sound nice to repeat what you heard over 
and over again without even asking or showing a shred of 
evidence to support your argument.
I agree that it wouldn’t be okay if a Muslim says Bible is corrupt over and over
 again without any shred of evidence. But the problem for us is that there is 
just so much evidence that it would be difficult to give it all. So I’ll just give 
some proof that Bible is corrupted. 
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/BibleIntro.html
I hope that’s more than a “shred” of evidence
Peace

 



Edited by _ALI_ - 26 August 2009 at 10:56pm
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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 27 August 2009 at 1:40pm
Long story short Ali; was the Bible corrupt when Muhammad received the 'revelation of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel?' Just answer the question....

BTW; 

Ibn Ishaq who wrote the earliest biography (Sirat) of Muhammad. He clearly indentifies the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an as what Christians call the New Testament.

Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following. It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary (Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", translated as "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, Karachi: Oxford, 1998, pp. 103-104, bold added.)

All you new 19th century followers are just changing what was previously said centuries ago to fit your own belief belief, going against your own holy book and your own prophet and your own god.


“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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