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Natassia
 
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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2009 at 6:08pm

@ islamispeace

Name one person who has not sinned. Either sin matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't matter, then hell is pointless. If it does matter, than it just can't be written off without some sort of price being paid. Sin has to cost something...otherwise it doesn't matter.

All babies are sinless because they lack the Knowledge of Good and of Evil, and they cannot make decisions. They act purely on instinct. The plan is in place BECAUSE OF SIN. We are the problem, and the "plan" is the solution. However, it is a solution only to those who desire a personal solution.


I agree, but that does not answer why God's plan required someone to commit evil.

The sinless are automatically saved from destruction. Jesus came for the sick not the righteous, remember? (Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31)

 
Islam has. Atonement occurs in many ways. Obviously, punishment according to the law is one way. Other ways, as the Quran says, include asking for forgiveness, feeding the poor, freeing slaves, fasting, praying, giving charity etc.

Yes, but how small can a lie be to be atoned for by just giving a thirsty dog some water? If I free two slaves rather than just one, then will my act of theft I committed yesterday be forgiven along with my lie?

 
That's fine. Of course the plan was contingent upon humanity sinfulness. If they weren't sinful, they would not require salvation. But there is a difference between salvation being contingent upon sinfulness and sinfulness being contingent upon salvation. That is a big difference. The Christian plan of salvation required sinfulness on the part of some people, which is why I also questioned Jesus could not have died in some other way, as long as death was the end result. That is what I am concerned with.

Like I said before, Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy. If you are sick, you need a doctor. If you are well, then you don't. God's plan was to save us from ourselves. If we weren't so busy trying to self-destruct, we wouldn't need God to save us. God always knew how it was going to happen...and it happened just as the scriptures said it would (at least according to Christianity anyway). God didn't NEED it to happen any certain way...we did.

 
Actually, according to your fellow Christian Douggg, we were born with a sinful nature. So, how is that our fault? It seems to me that it was really Adam and Eve's fault, since they were the ones who actually caused sin to permeate humanity in the first place.

How much of our sinfulness is nature vs. nurture? How much of our sinfulness can we trace to the teachings of our parents and society? Just as it was Adam's fault that humans are all born on earth rather than the garden in heaven (yes, that's in the Quran), so it is also the fault of the first humans who sinned that the rest of us humans are doomed to follow in their footsteps. It is not that our nature is automatically sinful, but our nature is automatically equipped with the capability of sinning (it's called Free Will). Name one human with the capability of sinning who hasn't sinned (other than Jesus).

 
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.(4:59)

That doesn't guarantee anything. Besides, the Quran says that Christians and Jews and Sabiens who believe in Allah and the Last Day will go to heaven, and then recants such a statement in 3:85 and 9:29-30.

 
The only difference is that a Muslim is also told to do good deeds and avoid bad deeds. When a Muslim dies, his deeds are weighed against each other and if the bad deeds are more numerous, then the Muslim is sent to Hell...but not for eternity!

And yet it seems to say that Christians and Jews who say they will only be in hell for a time are fooled. (Quran 3:24) So, what is it that keeps someone from an eternity in hell? Is it belief in Allah? No, that can't be right. Even the Jews believe in God...and yet they will go to hell. So, it must be belief in Muhammad. Wow. Muhammad, then, is the savior of mankind because it is belief in him that will save you from hell.

 
So, yes a Muslim is saved in the end. The only difference between our view and yours is that if you were to ask a Muslim the question "are you saved", the response would be "InshaAllah" or "God willing", whereas the Christian response to such a question would be "Yes, definitely!" That is because salvation in Islam is ultimately based on God's mercy, not on our own whims. We will not say "Yes, definitely" because that would be assuming the role of God, who is the one who ultimately decides who is saved and who is not. That is not the same as being "unsure" of salvation.

If you have faith in God, then you have faith in His salvation and mercy. There is no "InshaAllah." There is only "God will because He has promised, and I believe in His Word." You either trust in His Word or you don't. There is no room for doubt.

 
Yes, he was. But, because he was humble and truly gracious to his Lord, he prayed, asked for forgiveness and shed tears profusely. This is indicated by the testimony of Hazrat Aisha (ra):

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet used to offer prayer at night (for such a long time) that his feet used to crack. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why do you do it since Allah has forgiven you your faults of the past and those to follow?" He said, "Shouldn't I love to be a thankful slave (of Allah)?' When he became old, he prayed while sitting, but if he wanted to perform a bowing, he wound get up, recite (some other verses) and then perform the bowing.

So, Muhammad was indeed a sinner? Why should Allah simply forgive his past faults and his future faults? Why would Allah do that? Because he is merciful? What?! Mercy means injustice?

(Read Quran 46:9 again. Was Muhammad lying there when he recited that verse?) I read somewhere that even Abu Bakr didn't know if he would go to heaven or not. It sounds like a whole lot of uncertainty. If the Quran says that even Muhammad didn't know his own fate, then how is it that the Hadith may contradict it?

None of what you provided says that the sins of Muslims matter. All that is required is that they confess their sins on Judgment Day and Allah will automatically forgive them. So, there is no consequence for such sins as long as someone is a Muslim. Allah "conceals those sins" and "forgives them." WHY would he do such a thing? What happens to the spiritual debt? Allah just writes it off? Brushes sins aside as if they don't matter?!

 
You follow to the best of your ability the Quran and Sunnah. And, yes Allah does guide us as He wills. But, that is based upon our own actions. He only guides those who are faithful and truly yearn to do good and follow Him.

What you said makes no sense. Either we need Allah or we don't. If you are already doing all the work yourself, then what's the point of Allah? If you are faithful and doing good deeds and already following Allah, then why do you need his guidance?

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martha
 
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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2009 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by martha

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by martha

Wa-laikum as-salaam brother,
 
The war in heaven...
You could say Lucifer, (Satan) thought he had a chance to succeed. I always tried to look at it before that he was no different to any disobedient child,lol. And if you look at any dictator throughout history then they certainly felt/feel they have a good chance of success by bullying and evil deeds. And we know what ultimately befalls them. Disobedience to any of Allahs laws always results in their downfall...just like Lucifer(satan, shaytan)


Thanks.  This helps to clarify the Mormon viewpoint. 
 
 
 
 That's good then. Mormons are Christians but not everyone understands that
 



I guess they are as much Christian as Bahai's are Muslim.  The Mormon religion is different in many ways than it is similar, as you have actually shown.  I don't mainstream Christians would agree with the Mormon views on salvation, and the questions I presented were posed to those Christians, in all honesty.  Of course, I don't agree with the Mormon stance.  It does have its own theological problems, but you have clarified certain aspects.  Now if only the mainstream Christians here would answer my questions, I would be set! LOL

 
Salaams,Yes, lets hope you get some other replies. In the least it is always good to know some beliefs of other religions. THankyou for responding to the wrong kind of ex- Christian, lolLOL 
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 6:57am
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Natassia
 
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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 7:26am

@ Hayfa

In Christianity, a true believer in the salvation won't be a mass murderer. The gospel is this: REPENT and BELIEVE in the salvation from God. If you have a relationship with God, and He has bestowed upon you the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then how can you logically go around murdering people?

From Paul's letter to the Galatians:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Also...

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

From Matthew's gospel, Jesus speaking:

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "

Arrogance? It is only the truly humble who can accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and King.

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Akhe Abdullah
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 1:05pm
[Natassia]Yes, omniscience does not necessarily mean predetermination. I agree. SOURCE: My brain

[Ahke Abdullah]Salams,Not a reliable source,funny though.What does omniscience mean anyway?I know what omniscient means:having infinite awarness,uderstanding and insight,possessed of universal or complete knowledge.Allah is AL-Alim(All Knowing)When one converts to Al Islam all of his past sins are forgiven.
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Natassia
 
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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 4:20pm

@ Ahke Abdullah

Well, since omniscient means all knowing and predetermination means determining in advance. Just because God knows that I will drive my car to Roanoke tomorrow doesn't mean God decided that I would do so. (And a brain can be a reliable source if what comes out of it is logical.)

"When one converts to Islam all his past sins are forgiven," you said. Well, why?

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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 8:43pm
Perhaps I am being ignorant here, but a person who goes to Friday prayer is said to have his sins between that Friday and last forgiven.
I really don't understand this at all
Confused
Can someone help me out please.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 8:51pm

Natassia: Name one person who has not sinned. Either sin matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't matter, then hell is pointless. If it does matter, than it just can't be written off without some sort of price being paid. Sin has to cost something...otherwise it doesn't matter.

You are simply making up your own rules.  You seem to forget that there are degrees of sin.  There are some sins that are worse than others.  For instance, Islam states that worshiping others besides God is the worst sin possible.  And if a person dies in that state, worshiping idols (or the Messiah), they will not be forgiven and will end up in Hell.  However, if a person dies doing some lesser sin, like lying or stealing, but was still a believer in God alone and did not worship others, he will eventually end up in Heaven.  However, because he may not have sought forgiveness for his lesser sins, through charity or fasting or accepting the earthly punishment, he would make a "pit-stop" so to speak in Hell.  So, you see, the sins do get paid for.  It depends on the individual and other factors, but ultimately it is Allah's decision.  Some people he may forgive during judgment, whereas others He may not and as a result they may serve some time in Hell.  It is really very simple, not like the complicated plan in Christianity.

Natassia: All babies are sinless because they lack the Knowledge of Good and of Evil, and they cannot make decisions. They act purely on instinct. The plan is in place BECAUSE OF SIN. We are the problem, and the "plan" is the solution. However, it is a solution only to those who desire a personal solution.

But, according to the doctrine of original sin, the babies too are tainted.  That is why the plan was put in motion, to wash away that sin.  So, the question is since God does not allow sin in His presence, what does He do with the babies?  Do their sins get washed away in a ceremony in the afterlife?

Natassia: The sinless are automatically saved from destruction. Jesus came for the sick not the righteous, remember? (Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31)


You are not answering the question.  I already know why Jesus came.  I want to know why his plan required evil on the part of some people.  I want to know why his plan was contingent upon evil deeds by certain people. 
 
Natassia: Yes, but how small can a lie be to be atoned for by just giving a thirsty dog some water? If I free two slaves rather than just one, then will my act of theft I committed yesterday be forgiven along with my lie?
 
You are still forgetting that there are degrees of sin and degrees of punishment as well as redemption.  For instance, if a thief is caught in the act and it is proven that he is guilty and acted not out of desperation (such as because he was hungry) but simply out of greed, then the punishment he receives his having his hand amputated.  Since he got the punishment in this life, that sin was erased and he will not be held accountable for it in the next life.  If, however, the thief was not caught but felt bad about it and as a result, gave back what he stole and offered to make amends to the person he stole from, and never committed the sin of theft again, that sin would be forgiven.

Natassia: Like I said before, Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy. If you are sick, you need a doctor. If you are well, then you don't. God's plan was to save us from ourselves.

The Pharisees and Romans had to be evil to kill the Messiah, plain and simple.  The New Testament says that Jesus was unjustly killed.  Do you acknowledge that the plan of salvation required evil?  The answer should be obvious.

Natassia: If we weren't so busy trying to self-destruct, we wouldn't need God to save us. God always knew how it was going to happen...and it happened just as the scriptures said it would (at least according to Christianity anyway). God didn't NEED it to happen any certain way...we did.

That is exactly my point.  If God didn't need the Pharisees and Romans to kill the Messiah in order for the plan to work, then why didn't He arrange for some other way for the Messiah to die?  Why make evil one of the factors for the plan to work?
 
Natassia: How much of our sinfulness is nature vs. nurture? How much of our sinfulness can we trace to the teachings of our parents and society?

If you were raised by idol-worshipers, chances are that you would also be an idol-worshiper.  But, when you grow up and are capable of making your own decisions, it would be up to you make the right choices.  Take the example of Abraham (pbuh).  His people were idol-worshipers and for a time, he was confused.  He saw the sun and thought that was god, but when the sun set, he realized it was not.  The same with the moon and the stars.  He saw the fallacy of worshiping idols and heavenly bodies and as result, God chose him as His prophet to his people.

Natassia: Just as it was Adam's fault that humans are all born on earth rather than the garden in heaven (yes, that's in the Quran), so it is also the fault of the first humans who sinned that the rest of us humans are doomed to follow in their footsteps.

The two are not related.  This is a false analogy.  Adam and Eve sinned because they were humans.  If you or I had been in their shoes, we probably would have eaten from the tree as well.  That is because all of us have free will.  This is not the same as saying because Adam and Eve sinned, that made us sinners as well. 

Natassia: It is not that our nature is automatically sinful, but our nature is automatically equipped with the capability of sinning (it's called Free Will). Name one human with the capability of sinning who hasn't sinned (other than Jesus).

You are not making any sense here.  Our nature is not automatically sinful, but it is automatically equipped with the capability of sinning?  That would mean that we are sinful by nature.  Free will means being able to do both good or evil and having the choice between the two.  If you were automatically equipped with a sinful nature, you would not have much of a choice.
 
Natassia: That doesn't guarantee anything.
  Besides, the Quran says that Christians and Jews and Sabiens who believe in Allah and the Last Day will go to heaven, and then recants such a statement in 3:85 and 9:29-30.

It does and there is nothing you can do about it.  The Jews and Christians it speaks of in Sura Maidah were those who did not stray from the true religion.  They were those who refused to break the commandments or worship others besides Allah (such as with modern-day Christians).  Do you realize that there was a group of Jews known as the Sadducees who did not believe in the afterlife?  Do you think they were included in the verse you mentioned? 

Natassia: And yet it seems to say that Christians and Jews who say they will only be in hell for a time are fooled. (Quran 3:24)

Do not quote the Quran if you don't understand what it is saying.   The verse was alluding to their false belief that they would be in Hell for a certain number of days.  That is because they thought that they were Godly, even when they committed the worst sins.  The commentary on this verse states:

"These people [the Christians and Jews] considered themselves to be God's favourites and cherished the illusion that, regardless of what they did, they were bound to enter Paradise. They took the view that since they were believers, were descended from pious people, followed noble Prophets, and were disciples and admirers of holy men, Hell would not dare touch them. They also thought that even if they were thrown into Hell they would remain there for a few days only, to be purged of the impurity of the sins which had afflicted them, and would then be sent straight to Paradise. Such notions had made them so bold that even when they committed the most atrocious crimes and the most mortal of sins, and brazenly deviated from Truth and rectitude, their hearts remained utterly unmoved by the fear of God."1

Natassia: So, what is it that keeps someone from an eternity in hell? Is it belief in Allah? No, that can't be right. Even the Jews believe in God...and yet they will go to hell.  So, it must be belief in Muhammad. Wow. Muhammad, then, is the savior of mankind because it is belief in him that will save you from hell.

When you should refer to the Quran, you don't do it.  Why will the Jews go to Hell?  Because they have altered the word of God, killed some of his prophets (something even Jesus mentions) and also rejected His final prophet.  Why will the Christians go to Hell?  Because they altered the word of God and worshiped a man as God.  This is all in the Quran.

Natassia: If you have faith in God, then you have faith in His salvation and mercy. There is no "InshaAllah." There is only "God will because He has promised, and I believe in His Word." You either trust in His Word or you don't. There is no room for doubt.

There you go again, making up your own rules.  Like I said before, the humble will say that they will be saved according to God's will ("InshaAllah"), even though they will be saved in the end.  The difference is that because of their unforgiven sins, they may have to go to Hell for a short time, after which they will be released, because that will be Allah's will.  So, it really depends on whether the question is "are you saved in the end?" or just "are you saved?" 
 
Natassia: So, Muhammad was indeed a sinner?

Only as much as Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.  Do you see a pattern?  The prophets were also capable of sinning, but as I have pointed out, there are degrees of sin.  The prophets were protected by Allah from committing the major sins, like adultery, murder or shirk, the latter of which is the worst of all.  They could still commit minor sins due to carelessness or forgetfulness, and it is those of Muhammad's sins which were forgiven.  

Natassia: Why should Allah simply forgive his past faults and his future faults? Why would Allah do that? Because he is merciful? What?! Mercy means injustice?

Because he was the final prophet, but also because of the enormous responsibilities that were placed on him.  God required more acts of worship from Muhammad (pbuh) than he does from the rest of us.  He required him to pray more, fast longer and give more in charity than others.  He was also required to live humbly, not in opulent palaces like the leaders of his day and the leaders of today as well:

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Abstain from Saum-Wisal. They (his Companions) said: Messenger of Allah, but you observe Saum Wisal. Upon this he said: You are not like me in this matter, for I spend my night (in a state) that my Lord feeds me and provides me drink. Devote yourselves to the deeds (the burden of which) you can bear.

Saum-Wisal referred to fasting beyond sunset, which the Prophet did, but it was forbidden for the rest of us, since it would be a burden most if not all of us could not bear. 

Once when Umar visited the Prophet, he saw him laying on a makeshift bed:

Underneath his head there was a leather pillow stuffed with palm fibres, and leaves of a saut tree were piled at his feet, and above his head hung a few water skins. On seeing the marks of the mat imprinted on his side, I wept. He said.' 'Why are you weeping?' I replied, "O Allah's Apostle! Caesar and Khosrau are leading the life (i.e. Luxurious life) while you, Allah's Apostle though you are, is living in destitute". The Prophet then replied. 'Won't you be satisfied that they enjoy this world and we the Hereafter?' "

That is why his sins were forgiven.

Natassia: (Read Quran 46:9 again. Was Muhammad lying there when he recited that verse?) I read somewhere that even Abu Bakr didn't know if he would go to heaven or not. It sounds like a whole lot of uncertainty. If the Quran says that even Muhammad didn't know his own fate, then how is it that the Hadith may contradict it?

With all due respect, I have read the Quran several times.  I don't need a non-Muslim to give me lessons.  Sura 46:9 is very clear:

Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."

What this means is that he only knew what is revealed to him by God.  He does not have infinite knowledge, which is a misconception that many people who did not believe in him had.  The commentary on this verse offers a more detailed answer:

Then it is said: Tell them also : "I do not know what shall befall you tomorrow nor what shall befall me. I only follow that which is revealed to me." That is, "I am not a knower of the unseen so that everything of the past and present and future should be known to me, and I should have the knowledge of everything in the world. Not to speak of your future, I do not even know my own future. I only know that of which I am given knowledge by revelation. More than that I have never claimed to know, nor has there ever been a Messenger in the world, who made that claim. It is not a Messenger's job to tell the whereabouts of the lost articles, or tell whether a pregnant woman will deliver a boy or a girl, or whether a sick patient will live or die." In conclusion, it is said: "Say to them: I am no more than a plain warner." That is, "I do not possess Divine powers so that I may show you the wonderful miracles that you demand from me every next day. My only mission is that I should present the right way before the people, and should warn of an evil end those who do not accept it. "2

Natassia: None of what you provided says that the sins of Muslims matter. All that is required is that they confess their sins on Judgment Day and Allah will automatically forgive them. So, there is no consequence for such sins as long as someone is a Muslim. Allah "conceals those sins" and "forgives them." WHY would he do such a thing? What happens to the spiritual debt? Allah just writes it off? Brushes sins aside as if they don't matter?!

That will be one of the ways Allah will forgive.  Some people may achieve salvation that way, whereas others will achieve it through serving time in Hell.  Obviously, we are not told who is who.  Therefore, the educated Muslim would continue to do good and fear Allah. 

Natassia: What you said makes no sense. Either we need Allah or we don't. If you are already doing all the work yourself, then what's the point of Allah? If you are faithful and doing good deeds and already following Allah, then why do you need his guidance?

Stop for a second and try to read what I said carefully.  Guidance comes from Allah.  You are good because of Allah.  The evil comes from yourself.  The good comes from Allah.  But, in order to earn Allah's guidance, you must demonstrate faith and the determination to do good and avoid evil, through your free will.  If one becomes arrogant in their self-righteousness (like by looking down on others who may not be as faithful or good), then it is quite possible that Allah will abandon them, since arrogance is one of the worst sins.  Basically, they start doing good only to be seen.  Do you see the difference?  Guidance can also be taken away.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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