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Interfaith Dialogue
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Natassia
 
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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2009 at 12:09am
@ islamispeace

So, there is a "sin scale"? Well, then some sins are worse than others; however that must mean they all must cost something. Shirk costs eternal torment. Disbelief costs eternal torment. Lying costs torment for...? 2 days? 3 years? How does that work exactly? Or if a Muslim frees a slave, then they won't have to be tormented? Well, what if they are too poor to afford slaves in the first place? This is sounding extremely complicated and confusing. Can you please provide a written Sin Scale for me along with the various punishments that go along with each sin and then the possible good deeds that I can do to make up for them in order to avoid hell?

It really sounds to me like you are your own savior. What you do determines what happens to you later. You can save yourself from hell by sticking to the rules as best you can and then performing good deeds to make up for the times you don't. I mean, at that point, what do you need Allah for?

Babies are not "tainted." Humans are not born with sin. They are born from sinful parents, and it is the sinful teachings of parents that "taint children." Humans have the ability (once they reach a certain age) to exercise free will apart from primitive instinct. It is Free Will which exposes us to sin...without it, we could not sin.

God's plan is constructed BECAUSE of sin. It's like the "What came first: the chicken or the egg?" question, except in this case we know which came first...Sin. Without sin, we would not need salvation.

You wrote: You are still forgetting that there are degrees of sin and degrees of punishment as well as redemption. For instance, if a thief is caught in the act and it is proven that he is guilty and acted not out of desperation (such as because he was hungry) but simply out of greed, then the punishment he receives his having his hand amputated. Since he got the punishment in this life, that sin was erased and he will not be held accountable for it in the next life. If, however, the thief was not caught but felt bad about it and as a result, gave back what he stole and offered to make amends to the person he stole from, and never committed the sin of theft again, that sin would be forgiven.

Why is a sin automatically forgiven just because someone feels bad about what they did? Oh, wait, you said they must give back what they stole and offer to make amends to the person...THAT is called atonement. So, atonement is required for sins in Islam...or no?

The Pharisees and Romans were evil, that is WHY they killed the Messiah. God knew they would always do such a thing, and so the ransom offered by the Messiah was accepted by God.

Sin--->plan of salvation NOT plan of salvation--->sin.

You wrote: That is exactly my point. If God didn't need the Pharisees and Romans to kill the Messiah in order for the plan to work, then why didn't He arrange for some other way for the Messiah to die? Why make evil one of the factors for the plan to work?

Perhaps because God doesn't want to move us around like pieces on a chessboard. Perhaps because God wants humans to be free to make their own choices. Perhaps because justice requires perfect atonement for sin, and since God KNEW the Pharisees and Romans would slaughter the perfect Lamb of God, then God in His mercy accepted the willing sacrifice of Christ for the sins of the world.

So, Allah chose Abraham based on Abraham's merits. Because Abraham was a righteous man based on his personal beliefs and logical brain, then Allah chose him? Hmmm...sounds to me like Allah is wrapped around the finger of Muslims...and the decision of Allah was dependent upon the beliefs and actions of man.

Adam and Eve sinned because they were humans? Are you saying that Allah has created man sinful? Adam and Eve sinned and started a snowball effect. I am not a sinner BECAUSE Adam and Eve were. I am a sinner because I choose to be. But for me to sin means I have to be born with the ability to sin. According to the Genesis story, it is this ability that has been passed on.

How am I not making sense? Just because I have the ABILITY to do something doesn't mean that I will do it. If you are a male, your body is naturally equipped to rape...it doesn't mean that you will ever rape someone. Free will is the ability to sin...God is the creator of all that is good, but free will allows you to pervert that which is good. It doesn't necessarily mean that you will.


If Jews and Christians were following the "true religion" they wouldn't be Jews or Christians. They'd be Muslims just like how Islam says Abraham and Ishmael were. You can't have it both ways. Either the Judeo-Christian religions ARE Islam or they are not. If they are, then it is inaccurate to call the followers of such a religion Jews or Christians because they would in fact be Muslims. If they are not Islam, then it is inaccurate to say that the Jews and Christians who go to heaven are the ones following the true religion.

You wrote: Do not quote the Quran if you don't understand what it is saying. The verse was alluding to their false belief that they would be in Hell for a certain number of days. That is because they thought that they were Godly, even when they committed the worst sins. The commentary on this verse states:

"These people [the Christians and Jews] considered themselves to be God's favourites and cherished the illusion that, regardless of what they did, they were bound to enter Paradise. They took the view that since they were believers, were descended from pious people, followed noble Prophets, and were disciples and admirers of holy men, Hell would not dare touch them. They also thought that even if they were thrown into Hell they would remain there for a few days only, to be purged of the impurity of the sins which had afflicted them, and would then be sent straight to Paradise. Such notions had made them so bold that even when they committed the most atrocious crimes and the most mortal of sins, and brazenly deviated from Truth and rectitude, their hearts remained utterly unmoved by the fear of God."1

So, is commentary now required to make sense of the timeless, perfect, unchanging words of Allah? Words described to be perfectly clear and understandable?

Not all Jews have killed prophets. Not all Jews have altered the word of God. How about Jews born in the 7th century AD to Jewish parents who never killed anyone and never altered any scriptures? Those Jews believed in God. So again, it comes down to belief in Muhammad. It is belief in MUHAMMAD that saves a Jew...not belief in Allah. What a sad state of affairs.

I am humble. Are you insinuating that because I believe God will save me FOR SURE that I am not humble? I'm not making rules. You either know that you are saved from hell or you don't. What is this wishy-washy-ness? Where's the basic logic? So, are you saying that Muslims don't really know if God will save them from hell because they might be punished for some sins that they didn't have a chance to ATONE for?

By the way, Jesus never sinned. Perhaps that is why Allah saved him from a cruel death and whisked him up to heaven to remain with him until the final day of judgment. Perhaps that is why Jesus had the ability to cure the sick, raise the dead, and give clay birds life.

So, Muhammad's sins were forgiven because of what Muhammad did? The abilities and personal strengths of Muhammad were Muhammad's saving grace?

With all due respect, Quran 46:9 makes it VERY clear that even Muhammad did not know the future...even of his own soul.

Natassia: None of what you provided says that the sins of Muslims matter. All that is required is that they confess their sins on Judgment Day and Allah will automatically forgive them. So, there is no consequence for such sins as long as someone is a Muslim. Allah "conceals those sins" and "forgives them." WHY would he do such a thing? What happens to the spiritual debt? Allah just writes it off? Brushes sins aside as if they don't matter?!

You wrote: That will be one of the ways Allah will forgive. Some people may achieve salvation that way, whereas others will achieve it through serving time in Hell. Obviously, we are not told who is who. Therefore, the educated Muslim would continue to do good and fear Allah.  

This all sounds very confusing. Muslims are given no guarantees. You might be shown mercy or you might not. Wow.

Okay, let's break this down:

1. Good is from Allah, not myself.

2. Evil is from me, not Allah.

3. Guidance comes from Allah.

4. Allah causes me to be good.

5. I must be good in order to prove that I have faith.

6. If I suddenly stop being good, then Allah will leave me.

But if #4 is already happening, then how could #6 ever truly happen? If Allah is what makes me good, and he is guiding me...then how can I suddenly do evil? And why would he abandon me? If I am lost and no longer on the straight path, then that is when I would need Allah the most! And why must I do #5 if Allah is omniscient? And where does #2 come from? How does evil come from me? Did Allah make me evil? If I am Allah's creation (and how could a perfect creator ever create something imperfect?), then how could he make me a certain way knowing that it would lead me to hell?

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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2009 at 8:15am
Natassia, < ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><>

Natassia,

So you are saying that the people who kill are not 'really' Christians?  Interesting.. so the fact that most "Christians" sin all the time (just look at all the adultery, open sex, murder, robbery (2 million Americans in prison), leaving parents to fend for themselves... lust, pornography.. now all of these people are not "Christian?" Interesting so really there are only a handful as you said, we are all sinners.. so... those people are not  Christian?  Interesting… Interesting..  

I am glad you are SO confident you will be saved.. your actions are irrelevant…. Fascinating.. fascinating…

Islam admits that it is belief in one God and your actions determine your fate. Your right, there are grades of sin. I can say ‘bad words’ or I can beat up my mother.. which is worse?? Of course there are grades.. you make it sounds like a foreign concept. Its like a park the car wrong, I can get a ticket, I  rob people, I go to prison. Grades. Not all crimes are the same. 

The difference between Islam and previous monotheistic religions is that it IS more comprehensive.  It is more aligned with the Hebrew Scriptures with the laws. And there are more in the Judaic code.. you think we have it hard to avoid alcohol and not eat pork.. they have like over 62!! I have a Jewish friend telling me.. wow.

You, I believe , BELIEVE, PRAY and REPENT. Guess what,  so do Muslims. There is no difference in this regard. We must believe in God, do good, repent when we fail. 

Repenting it to help us get closer to our SOURCE.  When I repent, I am self-reflecting. That is what repentance is partially about. So I can improve. That is the nature to try and improve.  To get closer to our Creator. 

And yes if I do bad, repent and seek to do good, then the reality is I am DOING GOOD.  The reason there are different good and bad things is that we are not all born into the same circumstances. For instance, there are 27 million slaves currently enslaved in the world- and yes in the US as well. . So some people can DO GOOD and free the slave. I am born and live in a world that I do not own slaves (nor does my family). But I can do good by helping the poor. Because clearly we all are given differences in this world, we can do good with what God blessed us with.

Why do you repent? If you are automatically forgiven what is the purpose for YOU to repent?

Say a Christian person, commits a sin, say, a parent who is an alcoholic and neglects their children. So they pray, repent and seek strength, correct??  And try to not do it again... but they may fail again or it may change.

I guess I am not seeing that much difference in terms of the general idea. Belief- follow the tenants - pray- repent.

The main difference is that you believe you need belief in Jesus as God or Son of God, (I am not sure which). We believe that Jesus is a Prophet, a Messenger of God. But we believe in only God, who did not produce a ‘son.’

So we have belief- prayer - repentance.  

 


uggh cannot get rid of these st**id lines!!! lol



Edited by Hayfa - 22 July 2009 at 8:24am
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2009 at 9:00am
@ Hayfa
 

It is easy to label oneself anything. I called myself a Christian for 10 years...never realizing that I wasn't one. People who are members of a church frequently call themselves Christian...that doesn't mean they are. It is Christ who makes someone a Christian. You cannot make yourself one by trying to follow a set of rules.

As Jesus said, you will know a tree by its fruits. If someone is going around murdering people and yet claiming to be a Christian--what do you think? Is murder breaking Jesus' commands or following them? Christ said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." Everyone makes mistakes, but if you truly love someone are you going to do something to hurt them?

To purposefully sin after believing Christ died for your sins is like crucifying Jesus all over again.

My actions are irrelevant for my salvation; however they do prove to myself and others if my faith is what it needs to be for salvation. If I am a lying, stealing, cheating woman...then do I really have faith or is my faith "dead"? Even the demons believe Jesus did what he did...and yet they do not accept him as their Lord and Savior. That's the difference.

You forget something. It is not just belief in one God and good deeds that determine your fate...it is belief in Muhammad. He is what sets Islam apart from Judaism. Judaism already condemns sin and professes belief in a "oneness" God (whatever that really means). Judaism already requires that its followers do good deeds and avoid evil. The one thing Judaism denies is Muhammad.

Therefore, salvation in Islam is contingent on Muhammad.

 

You, I believe , BELIEVE, PRAY and REPENT. Guess what, so do Muslims. There is no difference in this regard. We must believe in God, do good, repent when we fail.

Failure...as if God has expectations for His weak little creatures. How can an omniscient deity have any expectations? He already KNOWS everything.


Repenting it to help us get closer to our SOURCE. When I repent, I am self-reflecting. That is what repentance is partially about. So I can improve. That is the nature to try and improve. To get closer to our Creator.

I agree with this. Repentence shows humility.

 

And yes if I do bad, repent and seek to do good, then the reality is I am DOING GOOD. The reason there are different good and bad things is that we are not all born into the same circumstances. For instance, there are 27 million slaves currently enslaved in the world- and yes in the US as well. . So some people can DO GOOD and free the slave. I am born and live in a world that I do not own slaves (nor does my family). But I can do good by helping the poor. Because clearly we all are given differences in this world, we can do good with what God blessed us with.

You've still sinned. So what happens to that sin? It just goes away, like it never happened? God doesn't hold it against you? God doesn't demand justice?

 

Why do you repent? If you are automatically forgiven what is the purpose for YOU to repent?

You repent once...when you acknowledge that you are a sinner and have lived a sinful life. After you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, you become baptized in the Spirit and are made anew. From then on you live in the knowledge of that forgiveness and the gift of salvation. You simply maintain your faith in God. I have weak moments, but the desire to sin has left me. The desire to give in to temptation has left me. It's amazing really. And I attribute it all to God. I didn't do a thing. He changed me: what I want to do and why I want to do it.

 

Say a Christian person, commits a sin, say, a parent who is an alcoholic and neglects their children. So they pray, repent and seek strength, correct?? And try to not do it again... but they may fail again or it may change.

You cannot be a slave to two masters. When you are addicted to something, say alcohol, then alcohol has become your master. You have to ask yourself, "Do I truly have faith in God? Do I truly believe Jesus was brutally crucified and that he offered his life in place of mine? If I truly believe that, then what the h*ll am I doing?!"

See how it works? But that faith in Jesus gives you such strength, knowing that your past, present, and future sins have been forgiven: It makes me love Jesus all the more. Have you never read the story about the woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears and wiped them with her hair?

 

I guess I am not seeing that much difference in terms of the general idea. Belief- follow the tenents - pray- repent. The main difference is that you believe you need belief in Jesus as God or Son of God, (I am not sure which). We believe that Jesus is a Prophet, a Messenger of God. But we belief in only God, who did not produce a ‘son.’

No, the main difference is that Muslims believe they can earn salvation and Christians believe it is a gift from God that must be accepted without arrogantly thinking that we can do anything to earn it.

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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2009 at 10:05am
Originally posted by martha

Perhaps I am being ignorant here, but a person who goes to Friday prayer is said to have his sins between that Friday and last forgiven.
I really don't understand this at all[IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Confused" />

Can someone help me out please.
As Salamu Alaikum.Friday to Friday plus Three days.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 22 July 2009 at 10:05am
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2009 at 10:19am
As Salamu Alaikum,Islamispeace,Hayfa.I have read both of your post,good Job!
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2009 at 11:37am
[QUOTE=Natassia] <FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">@ islamispeace

<P dir=ltr><It really sounds to me like you are your own savior. What you do determines what happens to you later. You can save yourself from hell by sticking to the rules as best you can and then performing good deeds to make up for the times you don't. I mean, at that point, what do you need Allah for.[Akhe Abdullah]We seek refuge in Allah from the evils in which He has Created,We seek refuge in Allah from the acursed Shaytan.Only Allah can forgive sins and Accept repentence(AT-Tawwab).You being Chirstian should know that Jesus(As)can not forgive sins even on earth he could only pray for you.All good deeds are from Allah and all bad is from yourself.Surah 25:70-71) Unless he repents,believes and work righteous deeds,for Allah will change the evil of such persons Into good,and Allah is Oft-Forgiving(AL-Gaffar),Most Merciful(AL-Rahim),And whoever repents and does good Has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable)conversion[/
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2009 at 6:00pm
Natassia: Lying costs torment for...? 2 days? 3 years? How does that work exactly?

It should be obvious by now that it is Allah who determines the length of the punishment.  You are asking absurd questions.  Obviously, none of us can speak for Allah.

Natassia:
Well, what if they are too poor to afford slaves in the first place? This is sounding extremely complicated and confusing.

Only if you have not done the research.  Islam has the answers.  You just need to seek them out before making up your mind.  The answer to your question is found in the teachings of the Prophet:

(from Sahih Bukhari, 3:31:157)
Narrated Abu Huraira:

While we were sitting with the Prophet a man came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have been ruined." Allah's Apostle asked what was the matter with him. He replied "I had sexual intercourse with my wife while I was fasting." Allah's Apostle asked him, "Can you afford to manumit a slave?" He replied in the negative. Allah's Apostle asked him, "Can you fast for two successive months?" He replied in the negative. The Prophet asked him, "Can you afford to feed sixty poor persons?" He replied in the negative. The Prophet kept silent and while we were in that state, a big basket full of dates was brought to the Prophet . He asked, "Where is the questioner?" He replied, "I (am here)." The Prophet said (to him), "Take this (basket of dates) and give it in charity." The man said, "Should I give it to a person poorer than I? By Allah; there is no family between its (i.e. Medina's) two mountains who are poorer than I." The Prophet smiled till his pre-molar teeth became visible and then said, 'Feed your family with it."

So, there you go.  I find it strange that you are able to find Islamic sources when they somehow prove to you that Islam is false, but you have trouble finding the same sources when they refute your claims.  Isn't that strange or is it just me?

Natassia:
It really sounds to me like you are your own savior. What you do determines what happens to you later. You can save yourself from hell by sticking to the rules as best you can and then performing good deeds to make up for the times you don't. I mean, at that point, what do you need Allah for?

Of course what you do determines what happens later.  Is that a new concept for you?  If you deny God, you will go to Hell.  If you believe in Him, you will go to Paradise.  Everyone knows that. 

You save yourself from Hell by believing in Allah.  So, Allah is central to salvation.  You can try to misconstrue this simple fact any way you want, but the reality is that Islam acknowledges that Allah is the key to salvation.  The most important rule to follow is the 1st commandment.  There is no other god, but God!  Therefore, God is central.

Natassia:
Babies are not "tainted." Humans are not born with sin. They are born from sinful parents, and it is the sinful teachings of parents that "taint children." Humans have the ability (once they reach a certain age) to exercise free will apart from primitive instinct. It is Free Will which exposes us to sin...without it, we could not sin.

Well then you are contradicting standard Christian doctrine.  Do you believe in original sin?  What denomination do you belong to?

I agree with what you said.  The Islamic perspective states that all humans are born with a clean slate and only capable of choosing good or evil once they are able to make their own decisions.

Natassia:
God's plan is constructed BECAUSE of sin. It's like the "What came first: the chicken or the egg?" question, except in this case we know which came first...Sin. Without sin, we would not need salvation.

Again, I agree.  I did not question that.

Natassia:
Why is a sin automatically forgiven just because someone feels bad about what they did? Oh, wait, you said they must give back what they stole and offer to make amends to the person...THAT is called atonement. So, atonement is required for sins in Islam...or no?

Of course!  But, just so you don't misconstrue this and try to justify the crucifixion, atonement is done by the individual.  As the Quran states, everyone is responsible for their own actions.  

Natassia:
The Pharisees and Romans were evil, that is WHY they killed the Messiah. God knew they would always do such a thing, and so the ransom offered by the Messiah was accepted by God.

You are going around in circles here and not answering the question.  They were evil, yes.  But, why did the plan require evil to be done in the first place?  How does it sound to say that God's plan was achieved because of evil people?  Why, then would we not feel a sigh of relief that the Pharisees and Romans did evil by killing the Messiah?   We should be thankful that they committed evil, should we not?

Natassia:
Perhaps because God doesn't want to move us around like pieces on a chessboard. Perhaps because God wants humans to be free to make their own choices. Perhaps because justice requires perfect atonement for sin, and since God KNEW the Pharisees and Romans would slaughter the perfect Lamb of God, then God in His mercy accepted the willing sacrifice of Christ for the sins of the world.

So, then we should be thankful that the Pharisees and Romans were evil.

Natassia:
So, Allah chose Abraham based on Abraham's merits. Because Abraham was a righteous man based on his personal beliefs and logical brain, then Allah chose him? Hmmm...sounds to me like Allah is wrapped around the finger of Muslims...and the decision of Allah was dependent upon the beliefs and actions of man.

Your entire premise is a straw man.  Allah guides those who are worthy of guidance.  Abraham was chosen because he had demonstrated obedience and goodness.  And remember that without Allah, Abraham would never have survived in a land of pagans.  They did try to kill him, but Allah's power was too much for the disbelievers.

Natassia:
Are you saying that Allah has created man sinful?

No, Allah has created man to be imperfect and with a free will.  This should be obvious to any spiritual person.

Natassia:
Adam and Eve sinned and started a snowball effect. I am not a sinner BECAUSE Adam and Eve were. I am a sinner because I choose to be. But for me to sin means I have to be born with the ability to sin. According to the Genesis story, it is this ability that has been passed on.

You are contradicting yourself.  If you have been born with the ability to sin, that means God created you that way.  It sounds to me like you are the one who is saying that God created man sinful. 

I agree that you sin because you choose to.  Of course, this contradicts the doctrine of original sin.  I am glad you reject this doctrine.

Natassia:
How am I not making sense? Just because I have the ABILITY to do something doesn't mean that I will do it. If you are a male, your body is naturally equipped to rape...it doesn't mean that you will ever rape someone.

How is it that a man is equipped to rape?  Because he has a penis?  This is absurd.  I would say that no man is born with the ability to rape.  The urge to rape comes about from an unhealthy view on sex and women.  Not every man has those urges.  It comes about from the environment one lives in.  Perhaps he grew up in a house which objectified women. 

Natassia:
If Jews and Christians were following the "true religion" they wouldn't be Jews or Christians. They'd be Muslims just like how Islam says Abraham and Ishmael were. You can't have it both ways.  Either the Judeo-Christian religions ARE Islam or they are not. If they are, then it is inaccurate to call the followers of such a religion Jews or Christians because they would in fact be Muslims. If they are not Islam, then it is inaccurate to say that the Jews and Christians who go to heaven are the ones following the true religion.

No one is suggesting that it was both ways.  That is your own assumption.  Of course, they were Muslims. They submitted to the will of God.  So, the Quran refers to them as "Jews" or "Christians" simply to make a point.  How would we know who the Quran was talking about if it referred to them as Muslims?  The verse serves to remind the disbelieving Jews and Christians of their roots, the roots of monotheism and service to God, which they have betrayed. 

Natassia:
So, is commentary now required to make sense of the timeless, perfect, unchanging words of Allah? Words described to be perfectly clear and understandable?

It is perfectly clear to us Muslims!  But for your benefit, a commentary helps.  There is nothing wrong in explaining the Quran to those who are not knowledgeable.  One has to be knowledgeable first in order to understand the crystal-clear message of the Quran. 

Natassia: Not all Jews have killed prophets. Not all Jews have altered the word of God. How about Jews born in the 7th century AD to Jewish parents who never killed anyone and never altered any scriptures? Those Jews believed in God.

If they believed in Allah and ALL his prophets, including Muhammad, then they would be saved.  The Jews who were born before Islam and who believed in Allah and did not disobey him or alter His word would be saved.  Those Jews before Islam who did kill the prophets and disobeyed God and altered His word, and did not repent, would be doomed to Hell.

Natassia:
So again, it comes down to belief in Muhammad. It is belief in MUHAMMAD that saves a Jew...not belief in Allah. What a sad state of affairs.

Not at all.  Belief in Muhammad is secondary.  If one believed in Muhammad but disbelieved in God, he would be a disbeliever.  Conversely, if one believed in God but rejected Muhammad as a prophet, he would also be a disbeliever, since it is God who chose Muhammad.  There is nothing complicated about this.  You are making a mountain out of a pebble. 
 
Natassia:
I am humble. Are you insinuating that because I believe God will save me FOR SURE that I am not humble? I'm not making rules. You either know that you are saved from hell or you don't. What is this wishy-washy-ness? Where's the basic logic? So, are you saying that Muslims don't really know if God will save them from hell because they might be punished for some sins that they didn't have a chance to ATONE for?

We put great emphasis on God's will.  That is why when we speak of the future, we always say "God willing".  Am I saved?  Yes, God willing.  You see?

Natassia:
By the way, Jesus never sinned. Perhaps that is why Allah saved him from a cruel death and whisked him up to heaven to remain with him until the final day of judgment. Perhaps that is why Jesus had the ability to cure the sick, raise the dead, and give clay birds life.

Ezekiel also raised people from the dead.  So, what does that mean?  Jesus was not perfect.  I am sure that at some point in his life, he did something wrong.  The Gospels try very hard to try to paint him in a perfect light, but even they show that he was nothing more than human, and to be human is nothing compared to the majesty of God. 

Natassia:
So, Muhammad's sins were forgiven because of what Muhammad did? The abilities and personal strengths of Muhammad were Muhammad's saving grace?

They certainly helped to elevate him above others.  He was the best of humanity, and the best of Allah's servants and worshipers.  Because he did more to please Allah, he was awarded in various ways, one of which was the forgiving of all of his sins, past and present.  And yet, he still did more as an act of thanksgiving to his Lord. 

Natassia:
With all due respect, Quran 46:9 makes it VERY clear that even Muhammad did not know the future...even of his own soul.

Like I said, I don't need Quran lessons from a Christian.  Muhammad was simply refuting a misconception the pagans had about him; that he knew everything.  The point he was making was that all that he knows is what is revealed to him.  He was making a general statement.  You can try all you want to misconstrue that and rant about it, but the reality is clear. 

Natassia:
This all sounds very confusing. Muslims are given no guarantees. You might be shown mercy or you might not. Wow.

I have already explained this matter.  Muslims are told that they will be saved in the end.  Case closed.  Think of it what you will.

Natassia: 1. Good is from Allah, not myself.

Very good!

Natassia: 2. Evil is from me, not Allah.

Yes, keep going.

Natassia: 3. Guidance comes from Allah.

Yes!  Yes!

Natassia: 4. Allah causes me to be good.

Yes, almost there!  But, why do I get the feeling that you are going to screw up eventually?  Wink

Natassia: 5. I must be good in order to prove that I have faith.

And to be worthy of Allah's guidance.

Natassia: 6. If I suddenly stop being good, then Allah will leave me.

He may leave you.  It is up to Him.  Obviously, the decision rests with Him.  If you become arrogant and suddenly reject God, He certainly may abandon you and thereby doom you to Hell. 

Natassia: But if #4 is already happening, then how could #6 ever truly happen?  If Allah is what makes me good, and he is guiding me...then how can I suddenly do evil?

No, you screwed up!  LOL
LOL

Go back to number 2!  Did you already forget that evil comes from you?  Remember, free will?  Just because He guides you does not mean He takes away your free will.  He shows you the path, but you are the one who must walk it. 

Natassia: And why must I do #5 if Allah is omniscient?

So that when He punishes or rewards you, you will know why.  Its simple!  Its not for His benefit, but for ours.  Based on your argument, He should just put the ones who will be good in Heaven and those who will be bad in Hell from the start, without the earthly life.  But then, would we not ask Him to give us a chance to prove ourselves?

Natassia: And where does #2 come from? How does evil come from me?

Free will, Natassia, free will.  You can choose evil if you want to.  

Natassia: Did Allah make me evil?

No, He made you imperfect and with free will.  There is a difference.  Only He is perfect.

Natassia: If I am Allah's creation (and how could a perfect creator ever create something imperfect?),

Why not?  If He wants to make you imperfect, why couldn't He?  Are you implying that in your view, we were created as perfect?  If so, then how could we sin, even if we had free will?

Natassia: then how could he make me a certain way knowing that it would lead me to hell?

He gives you ample time and opportunity to find salvation.  It's your fault if you don't.  Why do you think He has sent thousands of prophets to serve as spiritual guides for humanity? 

He made you an imperfect creature to show that you are below Him.  He is supreme.  You are not.  If you were perfect, then there would be no need for a Heaven or Hell. You would not be in need of any pleasure and you would be impervious to pain and torment.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Akhe Abdullah
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2009 at 7:15pm
[Islamispeace] I find it strange that you are able to find Islamic sources when they somehow prove to you that Islam is false, but you have trouble finding the same sources when they refute your claims. Isn't that strange or is it just me?                             [Akhe Abdullah]As Salamu Alaikum,Islamispeace.It's real strange,But we all have to start from somewhere Natassia,good Q&A!

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 22 July 2009 at 7:18pm
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