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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Topic: Any Answers from Christians?
    Posted: 15 July 2009 at 8:06pm
I have presented the following theological questions to two Christians on this forum.  Neither has yet to respond.  I figured maybe the other Christians here just didn't see them so I will paste them here for all to see.

1.  If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill himself?

2. Or arrange for some accident to occur? 

3. Would that not be the same as being crucified, as long as the result was death?

4. And what about the ones who killed him (allegedly)?  Are they not the greatest heroes in the world?  I mean, come on, they basically ensured that Jesus' mission would be a success.  If they had not decided to kill him, then he could not die for our sins and therefore none of us would get saved.  So, the people who did kill him are heroes because they allowed for the mission to succeed and ensured that all who believed would go to Heaven.

Number 4 is really bugging me. 

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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martha
 
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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2009 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

I have presented the following theological questions to two Christians on this forum.  Neither has yet to respond.  I figured maybe the other Christians here just didn't see them so I will paste them here for all to see.
 
Will I do? I was Christian before:)

1.  If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill himself?

 That would have been suicide...not allowed in Christian religions

2. Or arrange for some accident to occur? 

As before, it would have been a form of suicide...

3. Would that not be the same as being crucified, as long as the result was death?

As far as Christians are concerned, crucifixion was a necessary part of God's plan...just as Adam and Eve were all part of the big plan. No other form of death for Jesus would have sufficed. Jesus after all knew his mission and knew he would be betrayed and would die.

4. And what about the ones who killed him (allegedly)?  Are they not the greatest heroes in the world?  I mean, come on, they basically ensured that Jesus' mission would be a success.  If they had not decided to kill him, then he could not die for our sins and therefore none of us would get saved.  So, the people who did kill him are heroes because they allowed for the mission to succeed and ensured that all who believed would go to Heaven.

How could they be seen as the greatest of heroes? They did not foresee  the crucifixion. THey were only human beings. Jesus had a 1 to 1 relationship with God so he knew his mission on earth. Even if Jesus supposedly died for our sins it does not mean we are exempt from repenting of our own individual sins. It is an ongoing progression in life, just as it is for muslims. We have to repent for every wrong deed just like CHristians. FOr Christians Jesus is the mediator between humans and God. Jesus is therefore not God as we know God. THis is often confusing for Christians and muslims alike. God and Jesus are separate personages.
 
Number 4 is really bugging me. 
Don't let it bug you, lol. Is it really that important anyway? Hope this helps. Salaams
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2009 at 4:38pm
salaams
 
1.  If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill himself?
 
That would have been suicide...not allowed in Christian religions
 
    At the time of jesus there was no " christian religion " the term
 "CHRISTIAN" was first used in Antioch some 30 yrs. after jesus' death and was given to the GENTILE followers of jesus.
   so if jesus would have killed himself this event would have shaped " what was to come ".
leland
 
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2009 at 7:17pm
Walaikum as-salaam sister Martha,

Will I do? I was Christian before:)

Sure!  Everyone's opinion is welcomed.  Smile

That would have been suicide...not allowed in Christian religions

I agree with you on that.  But, I think brother Leland also made a good point.  There was no "Christian religion" in the time of Jesus.  But, since he was from among the Jews, suicide would still have been forbidden.

As before, it would have been a form of suicide...

Now here I definitely disagree.  An "accident" would not be suicide, especially if it was not in his control.  Certainly, the Father could have conjured up some way for him to die? 

As far as Christians are concerned, crucifixion was a necessary part of God's plan

But how and why?  That's my question.  I already know that they believe that.  I want to know the logic behind it, if there is any.

Jesus after all knew his mission and knew he would be betrayed and would die.

You are still referring to the Christian perspective, correct? 

You brought up another point I didn't consider.  The betrayal!  We are told Judas betrayed Jesus so that the Pharisees could have him executed.  Does that not make Judas a hero too?  His betrayal allowed Jesus to fulfill his "mission". 

How could they be seen as the greatest of heroes? They did not foresee  the crucifixion. THey were only human beings.

Yes, I know.  But as I pointed out, their actions ensured that Jesus' intended sacrifice would occur, even though they were not privy to itYou could say that they were pawns in the whole grand scheme. 

Even if Jesus supposedly died for our sins it does not mean we are exempt from repenting of our own individual sins. It is an ongoing progression in life, just as it is for muslims.

If this is true for Christianity, then the crucifixion serves no purpose.  My understanding was that if I were to ask a Christian if he or she is saved, they would say quite enthusiastically "yes!".  Why?  Because Jesus' supposed death washed away their sins, supposedly.

FOr Christians Jesus is the mediator between humans and God. Jesus is therefore not God as we know God. THis is often confusing for Christians and muslims alike. God and Jesus are separate personages.
 
I don't know which denomination you belonged to but this is not what I have heard and read from mainstream Christians, Catholics and Protestants especially. 

Don't let it bug you, lol. Is it really that important anyway? Hope this helps. Salaams

I didn't mean that it was bothering me.  What can I say?  I am just a curious guy! Smile I spend my days pontificating on theological and spiritual issues.

Its important because I am trying to understand the other perspective.  That's how one learns.  Its also important because if a Christian tries to convert me, I have some difficult questions for them in my arsenal!  LOL
  

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2009 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

I have presented the following theological questions to two Christians on this forum.  Neither has yet to respond.  I figured maybe the other Christians here just didn't see them so I will paste them here for all to see.

1.  If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill himself?

2. Or arrange for some accident to occur? 

3. Would that not be the same as being crucified, as long as the result was death?

4. And what about the ones who killed him (allegedly)?  Are they not the greatest heroes in the world?  I mean, come on, they basically ensured that Jesus' mission would be a success.  If they had not decided to kill him, then he could not die for our sins and therefore none of us would get saved.  So, the people who did kill him are heroes because they allowed for the mission to succeed and ensured that all who believed would go to Heaven.

Number 4 is really bugging me. 

Jesus' mission was to restore that which was lost and fulfill the Law and the Prophets. He had foreknowledge of what would happen, and he offered his life up as ransom for many. Despite his foreknowledge, he did not control the minds or actions of those who betrayed and executed him. If you have read the Bible, you would see that despite the st**idities and wickedness of humans, God's will is still done. Despite the evil action men took to kill Jesus, God used the crucifixion to glorify His name when He resurrected Christ.

You are assuming that God's will was dependent upon the actions of humans. Here's where we come to the paradox of omniscience. So, God is able to know all of the past, present, and future...and yet He desires that we have free will and the ability to exercise that free will. Tell me, how is an omniscient deity to interact with His creation without controlling their thoughts, choices, and actions?

He always knew how wicked the Jews and Gentiles (all humans) would be. Despite that, He decided to give them a means of salvation and the gift of eternal life. And He did it...even though humans were still exercising their free will.

I find it to be absolutely amazing.

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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2009 at 4:57pm
He always knew how wicked the Jews and Gentiles (all humans) would be. Despite that, He decided to give them a means of salvation and the gift of eternal life. And He did it...even though humans were still exercising their free will.

Interestingly, so what is Jesus's choice or God's? Who is in control?  If he knew he Would 'die' and would be 'resurrected' then what is the big deal? If he knew the 'ultimate' result?

If Jesus IS God, then how was he 'sent' by God?

If Jesus is in heaven as part of the trinity,  what exactly did he 'give up'?

Its like if I give money and I know that money will allow me to get more money, what did I really loose or risk?


Edited by Hayfa - 18 July 2009 at 4:43am
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2009 at 8:36pm
Hi Natassia.  Thank you for answering. 

You are forgetting that despite our shortcomings and free will, God still wants us to do good and believe in him.  In other words, He does not want us to be wicked and cruel, but good and pious.  We all have that capacity.  That is why the crucifixion serving to wash away our sins does not make sense, because it required that someone be wicked and cruel.  The plan called for someone evil, and God never wants us to be evil. 

Look at it from the Islamic perspective.  If Satan never disobeyed God, we would all be in Heaven.  But, Satan had free will and he chose evil.  Even then, salvation was always open for us, if we made the right choices.  The plan never changed. 

For the crucifixion to make sense, the Pharisees and Romans had to be absolutely evil.  They could not be good, since it would ruin the whole salvation plan.  Its like saying that you have to do a little evil to do a greater good.  From that perspective, the evil Pharisees and Romans were indeed doing a greater good by killing Jesus, and ensuring that all who believed would be saved.  To say that God's plan of salvation required a little evil on the part of some human beings does not make sense to me. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2009 at 9:12pm

islamispeace..

I hope the following link is helpful and interesting.
 
It does explain quite a lot and this was my religion before I became muslim. You are right that Catholics and Protestants have completely different views to this.
 
As a child I found GOd rather confusing having been brought up in the Church of England(protestant) THe teachings did not make sense at all...all the stuff that God and Jesus were the same for example. Logically it was not possible. In my early 20's I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to dispel all those confusing issues of mine ( I know this Church gets a lot of bad press too, but actually there are several sects that don't conform to the original Latter Day Saint organisation)
 
Anyways, read the link, perhaps it will give you another perspective.
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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