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Whisper
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Posted: 22 July 2005 at 6:25am

So opression has one side you believe Whisper?

Yaar Zaman bhai, we have to start treating Community's posts with abit of respect from now on. He has something profound to say, but is unable to put it in the right words.

Today, I mailed his post to my offices and asked a chap there to convert it to a readable format. It just came back.

For instance, in the first sentence he is saying that oppression is not just single dimensional. It has many dimensions, shades and players.

His essence gets lost in his sentences or, I should say, in an utter lack of sentences. His message is amazing and based on the reality of our day. He is advising the Americans to choose better partners and work with people and not with people oppressors. A lot many other things.

I suggest, copy it on to a Word document and press return at each coma. It will begin to make a lot of sence. You would enjoy it begin to understand the man.

I admit I had been a bit biased since his post about joining the US army. Yaar, I am just a Pathaan. My country is occupied by the Americans and we are prepared to discuss nothing with them other than the exact date of their departure from our Watan. His proposal of joining the US army fell worse than some act of treachery.

I am going to apologise to him for my earlier response.

Edited by Whisper

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b95000

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Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:16pm

Originally posted by Whisper

So opression has one side you believe Whisper? and all those power greedy opressors are the US's work? surely you can see the untruthfulness in this, like the US has a power over people's choices wether they choose to be good or bad, If, and i seriously do not like to use the word 'if" since life is about what is. But if the US had not existed, do you really think opression would sease to exist?

Sad. Community, you could at least try and earn the right to a response by once posting something slightly thruthfull and not so airy fairy in content.

Isn't he really saying that there's a broader context than simply "US EVIL" which seems to underlie your point of view Sasha?

Edited by b95000

Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

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Whisper
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Posted: 22 July 2005 at 3:07pm

Sorry! I am withdrawing this post and have editted my earlier response to Community's post. Someone converted it into a readable format and he holds an absolutely fantastic point there.

My apologies, Community.

Edited by Whisper

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b95000

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Posted: 22 July 2005 at 4:53pm

Originally posted by Whisper

No, that's not at question here.

B: What? Your point of view, and mine and ours and everyone's is exactly what's at question here.

Plus, yes, the sad fact remains that we have so much violence in our world today just because the Greatest Power on Earth failed to be just in the worst burning issue of her day.

B: So the degree of violence in the world is 'just because' or solely due to the USA? See, what did I say a moment ago - "US EVIL" simplisms underlie your messages Sasha...you say it over and over and over - ad nauseum..in my humble opinion..

I do sometimes wonder why and for what?

Really, help me if you hold the answer.

B: Again, in my humble opinion, life and in fact geo-politics is not so easy as one might surmise as we sit here in front of our computers...honest people will confess to this reality. If Sasha were in charge of the world...we'd see incredible and horrific evil and violence, just as we do now, because human nature is inherently evil and in need of redemption..that is the why and the what and it has little to do with whether the US is in charge or if the Confederated States of Sasha were to have historically developed as the lone superpower..we can be glad that the sole superpower has at the least a sense of responsibility and virtue and democratic principle - as opposed to say - the Soviet Union had it been victorious over the US in the Cold War..

You can chastise the US all you want (that is your free right) - but are you going to legitimately maintain that the world is worse off with the US as the sole superpower vs. the Soviet Union...? Can we at least agree on that?

Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

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Whisper
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Posted: 22 July 2005 at 5:00pm

The world would be a much better place with a balance of powers. You know the disadvantages of any unchallenged power

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b95000

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Posted: 22 July 2005 at 5:17pm

Originally posted by Whisper

The world would be a much better place with a balance of powers. You know the disadvantages of any unchallenged power

I agree balance of power is important. US power is not 'unchallenged.' It is moderated internally and externally and informed by universal values. Of course the US is not perfect, I am not perfect, Sasha is not perfect and Afghanistan of old and new is not perfect...

We would do well to turn our balanced glare at those causing the wrath of deliberate nations like the United States of America and many, many others in the Multi-National Coalition. That is to say, we will not tolerate and allow people to kill wantonly our civilians for the sake of some Death Cultic, geo-political statement and then be shielded and aided by certain states (Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Syria) and by certain sects within Islam - extreme Wahabi Sunnis to be specific.

The responsibility for what happens as a result of these heinous acts, including unfortunate and unintentional death of innocent civilians in proximity to those that perpetrate such heinous, barbaric acts against innocents - should primarily fall upon those that are the prime movers - in this case al Qaeda and its harboring and aiding regimes (which I mentioned earlier). Secondly, responsibility for civilian deaths and injuries should be demanded of the MNF - to the degree that it can be demanded given such a contingent and emergent situation as the threat that AQ presents to the entire world. If AQ were not a threat then NONE of the current civilian deaths would be taking place or they would be happening under very different circumstances - for example more of this:
http://www.massgraves.info/
in which case we'd be having a very different discussion.

But to blame the defender of the innocent for actions taken against a heinous criminal, when that defender is acting under auspices of accountability, as I've outlined above...is truly getting the matter exactly backwards.

Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

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jibreel

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Posted: 22 July 2005 at 7:05pm

Assalamo Alaikum,

my conclusion if i may.,

The U.S. breeds criminals and is a criminally rich society, but its a fact
that we can not blame the west all the time, the far east also has crimes
against humanity and have caused mischief.

I would rather call the people responsible for the mischief in the world
materialistic polytheists.., these poor souls have been looking for love in
the wrong places and there hearts are like a rock, simply COLD... and
accursed.

Only polytheists like those who Allah's final prophet (PBUH) faced in
battles for the Ka'Bah cause mischief in the earth like this today.

Think about it., who else puts there money, power, wealth in property and
even superstitions between them and there fellow man because they
believe these are the values it takes to be a good person?

The mentalities behind these extremist right winged societies which have
high standards and high expectations of there people to live up to only
cause more harm to them then peace., take austria for a example, they
are very bias towards foreigners for practicing standards that only reflect
those they recognize.

Polytheists are people who even will rob others of the things they believe
will bring them closer to the happiness and salvation that the false
ideologies of the societies promised them the world for, yet only ALLAH
can save them from all this.

Edited by jibreel

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ZamanH

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Posted: 22 July 2005 at 11:37pm

Originally posted by b95000

Originally posted by ZamanH

Originally posted by Community

No, but it certainly will be less (much less...). And that (elimination of all oppression) is simply not the subject of discussion. Simply because you don't have anything to say, you want to subtly change the course of the discussion.

Really? You think so? What do you suppose would have come of the world under Nazi Germany, The Soviet Gulags, etc, etc, etc...without the US and other democracies opposing them...sprechen de Deutsch Zaman? Let's get realisitic here - you think the US more heinous than those I mentioned (or others) to the point that oppression would have been much less without her?!

WE would have have been as bad under them as we were under British rule, Indonesians were under Dutch rule, Algerians were under Fench rule. But Nazis and Communists certainly won't have been worse than other WEstern coloniolists in treatement of their subjects.

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet

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Topic: Muslims, conspiracy theories and blame cu
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Author	Message
Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 22 July 2005 at 6:25am
	So opression has one side you believe Whisper? Yaar Zaman bhai, we have to start treating Community's posts with abit of respect from now on. He has something profound to say, but is unable to put it in the right words. Today, I mailed his post to my offices and asked a chap there to convert it to a readable format. It just came back. For instance, in the first sentence he is saying that oppression is not just single dimensional. It has many dimensions, shades and players. His essence gets lost in his sentences or, I should say, in an utter lack of sentences. His message is amazing and based on the reality of our day. He is advising the Americans to choose better partners and work with people and not with people oppressors. A lot many other things. I suggest, copy it on to a Word document and press return at each coma. It will begin to make a lot of sence. You would enjoy it begin to understand the man. I admit I had been a bit biased since his post about joining the US army. Yaar, I am just a Pathaan. My country is occupied by the Americans and we are prepared to discuss nothing with them other than the exact date of their departure from our Watan. His proposal of joining the US army fell worse than some act of treachery. I am going to apologise to him for my earlier response. Edited by Whisper
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b95000 Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1328	Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:16pm
	*Originally posted by Whisper* So opression has one side you believe Whisper? and all those power greedy opressors are the US's work? surely you can see the untruthfulness in this, like the US has a power over people's choices wether they choose to be good or bad, If, and i seriously do not like to use the word 'if" since life is about what is. But if the US had not existed, do you really think opression would sease to exist? Sad. Community, you could at least try and earn the right to a response by once posting something slightly thruthfull and not so airy fairy in content. Isn't he really saying that there's a broader context than simply "US EVIL" which seems to underlie your point of view Sasha? Edited by b95000
	Bruce Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 22 July 2005 at 3:07pm
	Sorry! I am withdrawing this post and have editted my earlier response to Community's post. Someone converted it into a readable format and he holds an absolutely fantastic point there. My apologies, Community. Edited by Whisper
	IP Logged

b95000 Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1328	Posted: 22 July 2005 at 4:53pm
	*Originally posted by Whisper* No, that's not at question here. B: What? Your point of view, and mine and ours and everyone's is exactly what's at question here. Plus, yes, the sad fact remains that we have so much violence in our world today just because the Greatest Power on Earth failed to be just in the worst burning issue of her day. B: So the degree of violence in the world is 'just because' or solely due to the USA? See, what did I say a moment ago - "US EVIL" simplisms underlie your messages Sasha...you say it over and over and over - ad nauseum..in my humble opinion.. I do sometimes wonder why and for what? Really, help me if you hold the answer. B: Again, in my humble opinion, life and in fact geo-politics is not so easy as one might surmise as we sit here in front of our computers...honest people will confess to this reality. If Sasha were in charge of the world...we'd see incredible and horrific evil and violence, just as we do now, because human nature is inherently evil and in need of redemption..that is the why and the what and it has little to do with whether the US is in charge or if the Confederated States of Sasha were to have historically developed as the lone superpower..we can be glad that the sole superpower has at the least a sense of responsibility and virtue and democratic principle - as opposed to say - the Soviet Union had it been victorious over the US in the Cold War.. You can chastise the US all you want (that is your free right) - but are you going to legitimately maintain that the world is worse off with the US as the sole superpower vs. the Soviet Union...? Can we at least agree on that?
	Bruce Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 22 July 2005 at 5:00pm
	The world would be a much better place with a balance of powers. You know the disadvantages of any unchallenged power
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b95000 Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1328	Posted: 22 July 2005 at 5:17pm
	*Originally posted by Whisper* The world would be a much better place with a balance of powers. You know the disadvantages of any unchallenged power I agree balance of power is important. US power is not 'unchallenged.' It is moderated internally and externally and informed by universal values. Of course the US is not perfect, I am not perfect, Sasha is not perfect and Afghanistan of old and new is not perfect... We would do well to turn our balanced glare at those causing the wrath of deliberate nations like the United States of America and many, many others in the Multi-National Coalition. That is to say, we will not tolerate and allow people to kill wantonly our civilians for the sake of some Death Cultic, geo-political statement and then be shielded and aided by certain states (Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Syria) and by certain sects within Islam - extreme Wahabi Sunnis to be specific. The responsibility for what happens as a result of these heinous acts, including unfortunate and unintentional death of innocent civilians in proximity to those that perpetrate such heinous, barbaric acts against innocents - should primarily fall upon those that are the prime movers - in this case al Qaeda and its harboring and aiding regimes (which I mentioned earlier). Secondly, responsibility for civilian deaths and injuries should be demanded of the MNF - to the degree that it can be demanded given such a contingent and emergent situation as the threat that AQ presents to the entire world. If AQ were not a threat then NONE of the current civilian deaths would be taking place or they would be happening under very different circumstances - for example more of this: http://www.massgraves.info/ in which case we'd be having a very different discussion. But to blame the defender of the innocent for actions taken against a heinous criminal, when that defender is acting under auspices of accountability, as I've outlined above...is truly getting the matter exactly backwards.
	Bruce Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
	IP Logged

jibreel Senior Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 263	Posted: 22 July 2005 at 7:05pm
	Assalamo Alaikum, my conclusion if i may., The U.S. breeds criminals and is a criminally rich society, but its a fact that we can not blame the west all the time, the far east also has crimes against humanity and have caused mischief. I would rather call the people responsible for the mischief in the world materialistic polytheists.., these poor souls have been looking for love in the wrong places and there hearts are like a rock, simply COLD... and accursed. Only polytheists like those who Allah's final prophet (PBUH) faced in battles for the Ka'Bah cause mischief in the earth like this today. Think about it., who else puts there money, power, wealth in property and even superstitions between them and there fellow man because they believe these are the values it takes to be a good person? The mentalities behind these extremist right winged societies which have high standards and high expectations of there people to live up to only cause more harm to them then peace., take austria for a example, they are very bias towards foreigners for practicing standards that only reflect those they recognize. Polytheists are people who even will rob others of the things they believe will bring them closer to the happiness and salvation that the false ideologies of the societies promised them the world for, yet only ALLAH can save them from all this. Edited by jibreel
	IP Logged

ZamanH Guest Group Account Suspended Joined: 21 July 2004 Location: India Online Status: Offline Posts: 448	Posted: 22 July 2005 at 11:37pm
	*Originally posted by b95000* *Originally posted by ZamanH* *Originally posted by Community* So opression has one side you believe Whisper? and all those power greedy opressors are the US's work? surely you can see the untruthfulness in this, like the US has a power over people's choices wether they choose to be good or bad, If, and i seriously do not like to use the word 'if" since life is about what is. But if the US had not existed, do you really think opression would sease to exist? No, but it certainly will be less (much less...). And that (elimination of all oppression) is simply not the subject of discussion. Simply because you don't have anything to say, you want to subtly change the course of the discussion. Really? You think so? What do you suppose would have come of the world under Nazi Germany, The Soviet Gulags, etc, etc, etc...without the US and other democracies opposing them...sprechen de Deutsch Zaman? Let's get realisitic here - you think the US more heinous than those I mentioned (or others) to the point that oppression would have been much less without her?! WE would have have been as bad under them as we were under British rule, Indonesians were under Dutch rule, Algerians were under Fench rule. But Nazis and Communists certainly won't have been worse than other WEstern coloniolists in treatement of their subjects.
	An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet
	IP Logged