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Message Icon Topic: Muslims, conspiracy theories and blame cu Post Reply Post New Topic
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Rezz
 
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Quote Rezz Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:18am
b95000 said

about islam & killling (as long as it's not innocents), i hope to take you to look at one perspective. take the current western law & justice system. even in the western system, there exists the death penalty. so if i take that system out of context, i can say -- the western judiciary system kills people. is that statement, the entire truth? then, who decides the criminals? there's a justice system to it, remember. there IS a system to it. so just as muslims, we have the code of law to it. everything we do, we have the islamic code of law.

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Look at my point again. I am saying that as long as Islam allows killing, then Muslims will find an excuse to kill with the blessing of Allah.  During the many wars between Muslims (recently Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan…) don't both sides shout Allah-o-Akbar while they kill each other?

When Christians, Jews and the secular West kill (and don't misunderstand me on this, I acknowledge they do kill, often ruthlessly) I doubt many of them truly believe they are carrying out God's will. Unlike, it would seem, Muslims.

I see this as one of the problems with Islam.

Yes, in the USA they still have the death penalty. However, I am certain that, in time, they will go the way of Europe and the other Western Democracies and abolish this barbaric, state-sanctioned killing.
 
As secular democracies we can make these choices. We can progress. We can become more civilised. Under Islamic law you cannot. You are compelled to follow rigid, unchangeable rules that were formulated in different time, for a different time.

Therefore, could killing in the name of Allah ever be abolished by Muslims?

Finally, some hope. Perhaps.

I had the honour of discussing Islam with a wonderful Iranian Mullah a few weeks after September 11. He told me that the killing of Innocent people was strictly forbidden in Islam.

I asked him, who except for Allah could say with absolute infallibility  who is and who is not "Innocent". Who except for Allah couldsay with absolute infallibility, who should and should not be killed.

He smiled and answered that my questions show that killing is not allowed in Islam.

Was he typical? Is this view common? I’d be grateful if any learned members could answer these questions.

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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 4:35pm

About Colin's question about focusing on Bin Laden,

Obviously there are people who actually are willing to kill for the views he present which already existed amongst people but these people were not unified yet under one human leader, and these people have passed a boundry, they can not distinct between right and wrong  and because of their anger they are manipulated by Bin Laden and his likes to actually come to afghanistan, train to fly planes into buildings and killing their ownselves and 3000 other people out of anger and frustration, they could not think "hey this does not feel right i fear Allah because this is unjust" and instead of doing it walk away and take a road to the mercy of Allah, instead they went on with it and they did a great injustice and with that they sealed their own end and those like minded who stayed in afghanistan after this great injustice which they saw as righteous, and chose to fight for their corrupted views. Corrupted people in support of a corrupted view in support of anger made into a religion and unjustly calling it Islam, what can you expect from unjust people except unjust statements? and perverting what is good and make it into something bad? it is not possible to make something bad of islam, Islam is submitting to Allah who is The Merciful, while wishing His peace in doing so(islam). What bin laden did was gather those people who submit to his views and mis-interpretation of some verses of the koran and leaving out all the other teachings from it. All these people were willing to kill out of anger, so he gave them AK47s and some old hand grenades and sent them against the steel of the US military, they were destroyed and are being destroyed, what else is the reward of the unjust except defeat and humiliation? as for Bin Laden, you need to see the greater picture i think, with China on the rise, the US needed to have a presence in the greater middle east, to secure it's interests if you will, so Bin Laden made sure the US had a reason to be there, wether conciously or not, it is a good reason i admit. Arabs and other people who claim to be muslims need to see the reality instead of acting out of anger, anger only leads to loss and injustice, because anger clouds ones judgement and makes one act unjustly, and this injustice if it becomes too great will lead him or her to destruction or self destruction, take an example out of what is happening and look at the final stage of impatience and anger: suicide bombings, self destruction.

But Bin Laden, just look at his face, i think he believes he is doing the right thing....he just did what he had to do, gather the worst of them in afghanistan and let the US military clean them up. Better in Afghanistan then in some heavily populated area do'nt you think?

Reality can be harsh, but with justice it is good.

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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:25pm

4:75 And why do ye not fight in the way of Allah and of those who, made weak, ill-treated and oppressed?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

This question of Allah to  us still stands....

I do not hear them cry in the west because they are opressed, or call for help against the people of the west because they are opressors....rather those who claim to be muslims became the opressors, you can try and paralize those who listen to you by your theories and anger, but you can not paralize those who listen to Allah over everyone else. Bombing civilans and targets from 15000 feet high happens because those who fight the war now have to deal with people at home screaming for the troops to come back with the first casualties, if muslims fought they would make it clear they do not mind casualties on their side if it means avoiding civilian casualties as much as possible, we fear Allah so we do not wish to do injustice, we rather die then do injustice because to Him is our return, and with Him is our reward for our intentions and fighting in His way, and if those at home do not wish to pay the cost of giving us a decent funeral, then i would take a bag with apple seeds with me, so that when i die my rotting corps on the battle field may cause an apple tree to grow.

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 6:41pm
Hola! Let's forget about conspiracy and call it Dip Low Messy as it's now called.
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 6:43pm
How noble of dear Community to take a bag of apple seeds so that an apple tree would grow around his corpse! Do you intend doing that anytime reasonably soon?

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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 9:14pm
was it overly dramatic? what i wanted to make clear is that death is not the greatest issue to one who has faith, but the issue is to die while doing what is right and pleasing in the sight of Allah, and not to die while engaged in something bad. Every soul shall taste death, and one is not supposed to die except while being one who submits to Him who is The One and Only god, while wishing His peace through this submission to Him(muslim in arabic), as it is said in the koran, "walaa tamootunna illa wa antom muslimoon."  and do not die except while being "muslimoon."
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Quote Colin Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 1:13am
Community, thank you very much for taking your time to give a response to my question.
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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 1:30am

By the declining day, Verily Man is in loss, Save(except) those who have found safety and security in faith, and did mending works, and enjoin eachother with the truth, and enjoin eachother with patience.

[ This is chapter al-'Asr, from the koran, the words of Allah to mankind. Al asr is the time period after noon, past the last quarter of the day, before sunset. It is the time space before the end....of the day.]  

Have patience, there is mercy for those who are cautious of Him and those who are thankful to Him. He is The Merciful, and He is above everyone, so that also means in mercy and forgiveness. No one is more merciful or forgiving then Him, and no one is more patient then Him. Turn to Him alone, and do not let the worldly life deceive you, His is the power all together, and those who are ungrateful to Him follow but conceit. There is no true safety nor security except through Him.

 Say: "O People of the Book(bibleo means book in latin)! you are upon nothing unless you make standing(implement) The Torah (the Law), the Evangel, and that which is sent down to you from your Lord." and that which is sent down to thee from thy Lord, will increase in most of them rebelion and ungratefulness. so do not sorrow over the unthankful people(ungrateful means without faith)  [5:68]

Those who found safety and security(in faith) those who follow the Jewish (guidance), and the Sabians and the Christians,- whoever has faith in Allah and the Last Day, and did a mending work,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. [5:69]

 



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