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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by Whisper

Absolutely amazing. We must celebrate this profound thought and that too from an American (more used to just the good and the Evil characters in films and also on the world stage). My best compliments, B95000!

The West & the East are neither wholly good nor wholly bad.



Shhhhhhh Whisper!  Kudos, I'm glad we agree..
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by firewall

bismillahirrahmanirrahim...

about islam & killling (as long as it's not innocents), i hope to take you to look at one perspective. take the current western law & justice system. even in the western system, there exists the death penalty. so if i take that system out of context, i can say -- the western judiciary system kills people. is that statement, the entire truth? then, who decides the criminals? there's a justice system to it, remember. there IS a system to it. so just as muslims, we have the code of law to it. everything we do, we have the islamic code of law.

in islam, even in battles there are codes of law. we don't go killing people mercilessly, based on extreme hatred or desires. that's an act of the zalimun (cruel). Allah hates the zalimun . no cruel people go to heaven.

even in battle, we must pray 5 times a day. can you imagine that? so how can a muslim man, stay angry & vengeful, even in battle field, when he has to let go of that negativities & cleanse himself 5 times a day to submit to Allah. every single day! pray to Allah, cry to Allah... that's the core of his life. not about revenge or whatever. can you imagine, at war, a man must stop 5 times a day to go pray. how beautiful is that? that prayers will put perspective to his life & guide him to the truth.

if you're a true muslim, you'll understand my point of view. the 5 daily prayers itself cleanses a man/woman from being a zalimun. when a muslim truly lives the islamic way, he could never be intolerant, cruel, vengeful, etc.... whatever you accuse us of.

& i choose islam because, like one said, the belief in God (Allah) makes sense to me. the One, the Irresistable... i love islam. i think of other religion, & Islam makes the best sense. don't you feel that way? if you find it flawed, what other is the perfect one? I believe you'll never find that other, as to me, Islam IS THE PERFECT one.

i hope you understand.

PS: Islam also asks us to be patience:
" And We never sent before you (O Muhammad SAW) any of the Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked in the markets. And We have made some of you as a trial for others: will you have patience? And your Lord is Ever All-Seer (of everything). " Quran, 25:20




" if you're a true muslim, you'll understand my point of view."

This was a fascinating post to me...I think that whether you're a Christian or a Muslim the idea of being a 'true believer' vs. people that co-opt the faith for their own selfish reasons is a plague against all true Faith.
Bruce
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA

Bismillah

Brother Zaman, the above hadith may not necessarily mean that we should not fight our enemies. However, we should not be too pre-occupied with our enemies' intention to destroy us, their secret plots and conspiracies. This is not something that is going to destroy us, it is not something that is destroying us now.

I don't agree. I know West (or any other enemy of Islam) won't be able to destroy us, but the potential of the West to harm the Muslims is great. West is a genuine threat, I don't accept Western threat is a "conspiracy theory". Westerners were ravaging the world like wolves before the end of the Second world war. They stopped only because of the Communists. As the communists are no longer influential, it does not make sense to believe that West won't strive for re-colonization of Muslim lands in one form or the other.

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by ZamanH

Originally posted by MOCKBA

Bismillah

Brother Zaman, the above hadith may not necessarily mean that we should not fight our enemies. However, we should not be too pre-occupied with our enemies' intention to destroy us, their secret plots and conspiracies. This is not something that is going to destroy us, it is not something that is destroying us now.

I don't agree. I know West (or any other enemy of Islam) won't be able to destroy us, but the potential of the West to harm the Muslims is great. West is a genuine threat, I don't accept Western threat is a "conspiracy theory". Westerners were ravaging the world like wolves before the end of the Second world war. They stopped only because of the Communists. As the communists are no longer influential, it does not make sense to believe that West won't strive for re-colonization of Muslim lands in one form or the other.



"it does not make sense to believe that West won't strive for re-colonization of Muslim lands in one form or the other."

Do you believe, Zaman, in economic colonization then, as opposed to political colonization (the latter not being legitimately possible in the modern era by accountable nations...) ?
Bruce
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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 11:44pm
[QUOTE=Colin]

 

Community

I have a problem with the word truth, I know it is only a simple word, but when one starts to define what the word truth actually means, that's when the problems start. Truth is obviously dependent on what a person believes to be the truth. If we take religion for example, Islam's truth is not Buddhism's truth, Buddhism's truth is not Christianity's truth etc, etc. So when we start to fight others with the "truth", we are fighting with a firm belief that we know what God's truth is.The problems generally happen not because somebody holds a particular faith, it's when they use their faith as justification for killing those who adhere to other faiths or no particular faith at all. The simple word "truth" seems to have so many definitions for us humble humans beings to contend with. I can't honestly say I know which is the true definition of the word "truth", thus in recognising my ignorance, I will not allow myself to kill someone and justify my actions as being part of the struggle for the truth.

Colin,

the definition of truth can not be belief, because a belief can be wrong and false, truth can not. Truth is: when everything has passed, what remains is the truth, let me explain further. This means one has to have patience while everything is falling away untill all that is left is the truth.............This also goes for specific issues, one needs to practise patience untill the truth remains, ofcourse to do this one needs to be truthful to begin with, that is if one wishes to find the truth, one needs to be truthful. As for the issue of justification of killing and violence through ones beliefs, i give you this example.

When the prophet and the faithful with him started to practise their faith and inviting others to it, they were met with hostility from those who had beliefs, the polytheists started to persecute the faithful and they migrated from Mecca to Medina to escape this persecution, when they were in Medina more people accepted the faith they came with, but the Meccan polytheists still persecuted them, through blocking off their trade with other tribes, and even killing some of the faithful through raids, they justified this by claiming that the prophet and those with him were disbelievers and should be killed because of their departing from their beliefs. Some asked the prophet to give them permission to fight because they were attacked, the prophet declined. Then finally Allah sent the verse in which "permission is given to those who are fought against because of their faith, because injustice was done to them and that Allah is powerful to their aid" what remains is the truth, no one has a right to kill others because of their faith, and if someone is so unjust as to go kill those who practise a certain faith, then these opressed have the right to defend themselves. What happened after this permission from Allah to fight in defence, was that the Meccan agressors got defeated in a battle, although they were greater in number and better equiped then the faithful. This enraged the Meccans even more and they started to form a confederacy of arabian tribes against the prophet and the faithful, with the ultimatum either going back to idol worship and their ways or face death, upon this Allah sent down the verses in which He tells the faithful that it is an obligation to fight those who fight them for the faith. And even though they were smaller in number, they were victorious against all those tribes and the freedom of faith was esteblished from that day on. Because the faithful did not have to run and flee anymore because of intollerant people persecuting them and killing them, from that day on the faithful got a sword to defend themselves with and give that freedom to all opressed faithful in all the corners of the world, let me remind you that "there is no compulsion in the faith" as Allah says in the koran before you think that islam is about spreading itself by the sword, rather it is about freedom of speech, freedom to invite others to it and not to be killed because of practising it or inviting to it, because if this happens there is a sword to defend and a sword to implement. I agree with you history shows otherwise at times, but this is because history is the work of man and man can be wrong and unjust. What remained is the truth.

 As for beliefs, and excuse my strange comparisson but it's the only comparison i can find right now, someone can believe my father has 9 toes, but this does not mean it is the truth. Beliefs depend on one who has them wether he or she sees them as beneficial or not, like those meccan polytheists saw it as beneficial to have the people worshipping idols. Why did they see it as beneficial? because they can not control the people and exploit them for self interests if people know the truth. Because the truth is good and it sets people free.

From the opression of men, to the service to The Almighty.

Arrahmaan (The Merciful),

So to Him be dutifull,

There is no better master then He,

a thankful slave of Him is he who is truely free.

 

 

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Quote Colin Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 1:34am

Does anyone here think that Osama Bin Laden believes he is somehow defending his faith? Does he think his actions are justified in defence of what he sees as the truth?

I know the same questions could be asked of George Bush and Tony Blair, but for now, for the sake of clarity, I would appreciate it if we could focus specifically on Osama Bin Laden.

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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:29am

Bismillah

Originally posted by Colin

Does anyone here think that Osama Bin Laden believes he is somehow defending his faith? Does he think his actions are justified in defence of what he sees as the truth?

There are many people who doubt his existence let alone what he thinks and sees...



Edited by MOCKBA
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Quote Lameese Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:44am
Originally posted by MOCKBA

Bismillah

Originally posted by Colin

Does anyone here think that Osama Bin Laden believes he is somehow defending his faith? Does he think his actions are justified in defence of what he sees as the truth?

There are many people who doubt his existence let alone what he thinks and sees...

Evil is evil no matter what the name, no matter who the person, no matter what the intity and no matter what the perception......

Lameese

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