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Rezz
 
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Quote Rezz Replybullet Topic: Muslims, conspiracy theories and blame cu
    Posted: 14 July 2005 at 2:29am

I was born a Muslim. Having lived in Britain most of my life I recently made an effort to learn about Islam, to try to make sense of the terrible things happening in the world today.

My conclusions? Islam is a deeply flawed ideology. It is intolerant. It is totalitarian. It is not a religion of peace. Some of your members admit as much. Islam allows killing. (As long as the victim is not innocent!)

Is there one Islamic country in the world that is truly tolerant of other religions? Is there any Islamic country that is economically (except for oil!), scientifically or politically or culturally significant compared to the non Islamic world? No, because Islamic ideology will not allow this. Look at yourselves.

And Muslims? Victims of a regressive culture, always the loser to the other world cultures. The reasons Muslims constantly espouse conspiracy theories, the reason they blame, blame, blame; the Jews; the Americans; the BBC; anyone, is that the alternative is to look at themselves. We must sympathise with the pain that must cause.

The press headlines today say that the London terrorists were British. No they weren’t they were Pakistanis. Like the vast majority of Muslim immigrants they had never become 'British'. Other than having British Passports and access to freedom, healthcare and benefits unheard of in the Islamic world, they had never integrated. Even after three generations, they had retained their backward and intolerant culture, going back to the ancestral village to marry some illiterate to bring back and perpetuate the wretchedness of their community.

And the anger and hatred burned and grew inside them as it does with so many Muslims. Why are we at the bottom of society? Why are we poor? Why are so many of our young men in prison? Why is everyone else more successful than we? Who can we blame?

But how can Muslims possibly blame Islam when they believe it to be the word of God? Your religion doesn't work, will never work and I genuinely pity you. 

 

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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2005 at 5:22am

Bismillah

You were born a Muslim but you failed to understand Islam (common phenomenon these days). You have been trying to comprehed Islam by looking at "Islamic" countries that are non-existent in today's world. Your comments therefore are not surprising. 

All you see today are the vestiges of greatness of once Islamic countries... some turned ugly with time, standing shabby-genteel in langour, trying hard to remind us... trying hard to make us, Muslims, reflect and ponder.

These however are not vestiges of imperturbable principles of Islam. Principles of peace Divine, principles of existence and purpose, principles of infinity versus temporariness.

It seems more from your thoughts that "having lived most of your life in Britain" and working hard to become "British" yourself, you have failed to conceal your true origin... for which you now blame the uneducated, unemployed, poor mass that chose to seek worldly refuge in your 'new neighbourhood'.  

A true Muslim, regardless of his origin, status, color and location NEVER considers him/ herself the "bottom of society". Islamic world is first and foremost in his heart. It is this unity of hearts, even if few, that we carry around and that can't be destroyed. A true Muslim has the word of God reminding him of those who are best and those who have failed.

If only you tried to read it carefully and not critically you would not be feeling so frustrated. A person who reverted to Islam once said: "If i were to discover those who call themselves Muslims before i discovered Islam, i would have never become Muslim."  

And may Allah open your heart, too. 



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Quote Rezz Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2005 at 7:55am

Your reply is eloquent and thoughtful. But one I have heard before. "If only everyone was a good Muslim then Islam would work!" Read it again. I am sure you are a thoroughly nice, decent, peace-loving person like the vast majority of Muslims. However, I believe you  struggle with a flawed ideology.

The results of this flawed ideology are Countries which are back-ward looking, oppressive and corrupt, communities who languish at the bottom of society and maniacs who are willing to kill in the name of Allah.

Now consider your own words from another post. "Killing of innocents is not in line with Islam". How many times do we hear this? So what is an "Innocent?". Who except for Allah can judge who is Innocent? The inclusion of the word "Innocent" in the Koran is an example of why Islam is flawed. The Torah and the Bible have the absolute "You shall not kill". No exceptions!

Yes, there are bad Jews and bad Christians just as much as there are bad Muslims. But philosophically it is so much more difficult for Jews and Christians to justify killing in the name of their God. I AM NOT SAYING THEY DON'T DO IT! Just that it is clearly against their ideology. However, in Islam it seems that as long as the people killed were "Guilty" of something or a "Threat" to Muslims then the killer might even go to heaven!  Am I wrong?

I hope you understand my arguments in the spirit they are meant. I do not wish to offend Muslims. I simply wish demonstrate that flawed ideologies, whether political or religious will create dysfunctional societies. Look at Communism. And the people in power will go to vicious lengths to stifle debate or criticism. (Look at Iran). Mockba, you are clearly an educated and intelligent person. Forget the conspiracy theories. Stop blaming the whole world. The answer is closer to home.


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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2005 at 7:56pm

Bismillah

Thank you for your sincere and open thoughts Jezz. Muslims are indeed fighting a flawed ideology that has brought about corruption, oppression and utter ignorance of God's Commands. That ideology however is not Islam. Islam is not an ideology, it is not a religion, but it is the way of life. If you were to ask me to state what particular ideology of today they are fighting I may not be able to point my fingers either. Islam fights racial superiority, injustice, disobedience to Allah, ignorance, temptation, and many more…

Yes, Islam allows killing (not murder)... and at some instance (primarily concerning times of war) it encourages it. This should not however be taken in general sense, for Allah, Most High, also says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (Quran 4:93)

In order not to offend a Jewish or a Christian in the forum, and taking into account my lack of knowledge and interest of exact content of their scriptures, I would not go into details of Torah/ Bible's absolutism concerning prohibition of killing, I don't know. There is something, however, that may not mean command to kill, but is clearly devoid of absolute stand on the subject matter.

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

Jezz, the inclusion of the word "innocent" in the Quran, which surprisingly you will not find mentioned frequently throughout the Book, cannot be "a flaw of Islam." Similarly the word "good" can't be a flaw either. In Islam we are not instructed to judge on who is bad and good, we are primarily asked to BE good ourselves and avoid evil... provided that our "good" corresponds with "good" described in the Quran. The concept of "innocent" or "good" as such remains unchanged to the Last Day. Which is not the case when we try to define these terms through our own limited intellect.

Your arguments are understood. They are not attacking, they are not defending, they seem to be seeking knowledge and understanding, and Allah knows best. Yes, flawed ideologies will create disfunctional societies... but ignorance of God and His Commands will bring about disfunctional world.

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Quote lionslayer Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2005 at 8:13pm

hello

 

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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2005 at 7:17am

Originally posted by Rezz

The results of this flawed ideology are Countries which are back-ward looking, oppressive and corrupt, communities who languish at the bottom of society and maniacs who are willing to kill in the name of Allah.

Outside the West and Japan prosperity and democracy is only an exception (prosperity, is non-existent I think). It is wrong to say that Muslims are suffering because of their own faults. In fact the entire world is suffering becasue of the Western mischief. Westerners directly robbed Indians for 250 years and have the face to say that they (Indians) are poor because of their own mistakes. Our mistake was only that we trusted the cowardly Western traders (god damned scoundrels).

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Quote Rezz Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2005 at 7:26am
ZammanH

It is because of statements like yours, typical sadly of the majority of Muslims I has encountered, that I chose to post my opinion titled

"Muslims, conspiracy theories and the blame culture"

Look at yourselves for the answers to the disfunctionality of your countries and communities. Stop blaming others.

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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2005 at 7:37am
I never said we are perfect. But we can't be poor just because we are not perfect. Westerners have killed lot more people in the last 100 years than all the people in the rest of the world, combined have killed. Yet, they are richer than the Muslims because they rob others.

Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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