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martha
 
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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2009 at 8:34pm
Wa-alaikum assalaam brother,
Many are threatened and persecuted on all sides. And of course we should not ignore this. BUt I think if muslims did not physically display themselves so angry then this would improve matters here. I understand why they are mad but there is always a better way to deal with any grievance.
 In what way did you feel threatened when you visited Europe? Did you come to the UK?
 
 
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ikhwan
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Quote ikhwan Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2009 at 10:27pm

Asalamualikum sister in islam

sister i first visited europe in 2000 before 9\11 and i was 13 at the time, i was with my family and we visited almost whole of scandanavia including Uk. our first visit was a good experience but when i visited again 2 yrs ago i felt there was a change in the peoples attitude, we visited alot of cities including london, stoke on trent, manchester, glasgow, Edinburgh etc and where ever i and my brother went our guests would tell us that avoid going out in the dark, in two places we were almost attacked. in one incident  my father asked another pakistani about the place we wanted to visit in Glasgow and two white men came and said to my father in an angry voice SPEAK IN ENGLISH, i obviously got angry that we as tourists are talking to a pakistani in our own language who are they to dictate us but there was no violence as the police was nearby. before our visit to UK we visited Turkey which is a strict secular country and is not favourable to people with beards and scarfs, but everyone welcomed us, we felt like we were in our own country, and in Uk there was this sense that we will be attacked in any moment, one of my aunt was attacked and she was hit by a bottle just because she was wearing a scarf. these may be isolated incidents but sister i think most people do hate us, and i think it is because of ignorance and arrogance, may be if they know the truth about islam and good muslims than they may change but Allah knows best. but one thing i must add that when ever i meet educated englishmen they are understanding, i think those who are violent are from the ignorant class.

one incident reminds me that all people are not the same, my brother and i were crossing a road in Scotland and suddenly a car came and stopped to give us a way, in the car was an english lady who knew we were muslims because of our appearence but still she politely gave us the way eventhough we (unintentionally) moved at the wrong time to cross the road, we thanked her. this incident shows that all westerners don't hate us but sister  unfortunately a large number of people do hate us and i think it is because of ignorance, yes we also have alot of bad people among us, black sheeps are in every community but we must understand and help each other  for harmony and peace if not than there will be hatred unfortunately.

Salamualikum.

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Quote hat2010 Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2009 at 1:43am
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Edited by Jamal Morelli - 01 November 2009 at 1:46am
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ikhwan
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Quote ikhwan Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2009 at 2:23am

sadly what brother Jamal posted  is reality.

 May Allah help the oppressed and guide us, ameen.

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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2009 at 3:09am
Here there are more cases of violence directed towards Muslims. It is not a figment of anyone imagination.

I heard a lecture recently about how we are always tested. Allah tested the Muslims when they ruled and were the or one of the dominant powers, and now they are not. The tests are different.

Martha: how do you decide whether to blame the dominant power or blame the victim? Many women do not wear  their headscarfs and I would say a good percentage is due to fear. Its like here in the US when the Japanese were qujte imperialist before and during World war II. The US interred and discriminated against Americans of Japanese descent. Should it be my duty to speak out against that bigotry not matter what the Japanese govt did? Were we right to interred those people? Are they to blame? 

And you can also agmit that the press shows what it shows, the few people who are angry etc. Are there lots of press on the good things that immigrants bring to the UK? That most are law-abiding citizens? Yes your ex is a skank, but most people are not.

I think alot has to do with people being fearful and the media is quite responsible for that. People tend to be xenophobic and when they show a rally say in Middle East that could very well be a peaceful protest, you don't hear anything about it. Or in Palestine etc.

I think the UK is facing, like the rest of Europe the reality that it is not the dominant 'culture' in the world. And you know what Martha, I guess I would say a lot do not like it. Yeah its all great when its peaceful, but there are TOO MANY of those people. And if they do come, and they are coming, and are birthing more people, then society WILL change.  There are many people who do not like that.  Its all well and good until there are too many of 'those people' and my gosh, its all changing.  And like here in the US, some people son't want other langugages taught, like  the dress code, etc etc. Well with more immigrants it will change.

People are WAY too group identified.. I'm US, I'm British, I'm Pakistani etc. But we are all a product of our societies.  I think most people, no matter their culture are just ignorant. They just don't know.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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martha
 
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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2009 at 4:33am
Originally posted by ikhwan

Asalamualikum sister in islam

sister i first visited europe in 2000 before 9\11 and i was 13 at the time, i was with my family and we visited almost whole of scandanavia including Uk. our first visit was a good experience but when i visited again 2 yrs ago i felt there was a change in the peoples attitude, we visited alot of cities including london, stoke on trent, manchester, glasgow, Edinburgh etc and where ever i and my brother went our guests would tell us that avoid going out in the dark, in two places we were almost attacked. in one incident  my father asked another pakistani about the place we wanted to visit in Glasgow and two white men came and said to my father in an angry voice SPEAK IN ENGLISH, i obviously got angry that we as tourists are talking to a pakistani in our own language who are they to dictate us but there was no violence as the police was nearby. before our visit to UK we visited Turkey which is a strict secular country and is not favourable to people with beards and scarfs, but everyone welcomed us, we felt like we were in our own country, and in Uk there was this sense that we will be attacked in any moment, one of my aunt was attacked and she was hit by a bottle just because she was wearing a scarf. these may be isolated incidents but sister i think most people do hate us, and i think it is because of ignorance and arrogance, may be if they know the truth about islam and good muslims than they may change but Allah knows best. but one thing i must add that when ever i meet educated englishmen they are understanding, i think those who are violent are from the ignorant class.

one incident reminds me that all people are not the same, my brother and i were crossing a road in Scotland and suddenly a car came and stopped to give us a way, in the car was an english lady who knew we were muslims because of our appearence but still she politely gave us the way eventhough we (unintentionally) moved at the wrong time to cross the road, we thanked her. this incident shows that all westerners don't hate us but sister  unfortunately a large number of people do hate us and i think it is because of ignorance, yes we also have alot of bad people among us, black sheeps are in every community but we must understand and help each other  for harmony and peace if not than there will be hatred unfortunately.

Salamualikum.

 
Wa-alaikum assalaam brother.
I am sorry you had a bad experience in the UK. People are ignorant, people do not always understand. And I have always said we must close this divide of cultures and religions. So how can we peacefully approach this brother? How do you personally handle such instances?
I was married to a Pakistani for several years. I always told him that we had a duty to show the world that all could live in harmony. I have lost count of how many hours I have sat with muslims and non-muslims, explaining Islam, sharing the differences of the cultures...and that despite setbacks from all people and their actions one day all could become better.
 Here some people would perhaps say I sit on the fence...I certainly try to put points across from all angles. I don't believe I am either a fanatical or moderate muslim. I am just me.
People matter a great deal to me. Any injustice to anyone would get my support, but I can't advocate a non-peaceful approach. THis applies with western culture and atrocities of war, and also with suicide bombers who think they understand Islam but don't.
There is no easy 'fix' It will take many years to resolve, if at all. BUt we must try.
Coming to this forum is a good place to start, right?
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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martha
 
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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2009 at 4:40am
Originally posted by Jamal Morelli



A murder that Germany ignored
Egyptian protests over the murder of Marwa al-Sherbini have shocked Germany but not driven home its true significance

Anja Seeliger
guardian.co.uk,



The first news agency reports on the murder of Marwa al-Sherbini informed the German public that a defendant had murdered a witness in the district court of Dresden. The reason was a quarrel in a children's playground.
No mention that the witness was a Muslim woman. No mention that the playground quarrel had culminated in the defendant shouting at the woman "Islamist", "Muslim bitch" and "terrorist". The German press reported on the case on the back page and fell asleep. A few days later it was awakened by thousands of Egyptians who protested vociferously against the "Islamophobia" of the Germans. Islamophobic? Us? Suddenly the German federal government, which had kept silent for nearly a week, found words of sorrow. And journalists started to write long articles about the astonishing reactions in Egypt.
I don't think Marwa's murder proves German "Islamophobia". But it proves a lack of interest in the reality of today's German society that is disturbing. And the more one thinks about it, the more disturbing it gets.
Marwa had worked in a pharmacy in Dresden and her husband worked at the Max-Planck-Institut for pharmacology. Why didn't their colleagues stand up and call the whole incident what it was: a scandal? And why didn't the press ask any questions? There was reason enough. As the Berlin-based newspaper, Der Tagesspiegel, has now reported, the defendant, the Russian-German Alexander W, had asked Marwa in the courtroom: "Do you have a right to be in Germany at all?" Then he threatened her: "When the NPD comes to power, there'll be an end to that. I voted NPD."
The journalists could have reminded their readership that the extreme-right NPD had secured 5.1% of the votes in council elections in Saxony in June 2008. Dresden, where the murder took place, is the capital of Saxony. They could have reminded their readers that nearly 50% of east Germans and a quarter of west Germans agree with xenophobic statements as a study by the Friedrich Ebert trust found in 2008. The journalists could have written about the poor integration of Russian-Germans, but also about their racism. They could have asked if Marwa would have been killed had she not worn a headscarf... and what that means for German society. They could have asked as an Egyptian did why Marwa's husband, while he was trying to help his wife, was shot and wounded by a policeman in the courtroom. Because he was not blond-haired?
And the journalists could have asked why the spokeswoman of the court, in her first press release, did not mention the nationality and religion of the victim which in this special case played a significant role in the murder.
But no such questions were asked. The press treated the case as if it was something banal. Just one of these tragic incidents one cannot really understand. It was not until the demonstrations in Cairo that the details were published. And then the German press very quickly had other worries. One day after the demonstrations a radio host called Karim al-Gawhary, the Cairo correspondent of a German newspaper, and asked him: "How dangerous is it now for German tourists in Egypt?"
guardian.co.uk Guardian News and Media Limited 2009
 
Bro..it seems the UK media covered the story well. Isn't that good? I can't respond as to why Germany did not take the same incentive. I am sure there will be plenty more in theUK media in coming months. We shall wait and see
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martha
 
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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2009 at 5:04am
Originally posted by Hayfa

Here there are more cases of violence directed towards Muslims. It is not a figment of anyone imagination.

I heard a lecture recently about how we are always tested. Allah tested the Muslims when they ruled and were the or one of the dominant powers, and now they are not. The tests are different.

Martha: how do you decide whether to blame the dominant power or blame the victim? Many women do not wear  their headscarfs and I would say a good percentage is due to fear. Its like here in the US when the Japanese were qujte imperialist before and during World war II. The US interred and discriminated against Americans of Japanese descent. Should it be my duty to speak out against that bigotry not matter what the Japanese govt did? Were we right to interred those people? Are they to blame? 

And you can also agmit that the press shows what it shows, the few people who are angry etc. Are there lots of press on the good things that immigrants bring to the UK? That most are law-abiding citizens? Yes your ex is a skank, but most people are not.

I think alot has to do with people being fearful and the media is quite responsible for that. People tend to be xenophobic and when they show a rally say in Middle East that could very well be a peaceful protest, you don't hear anything about it. Or in Palestine etc.

I think the UK is facing, like the rest of Europe the reality that it is not the dominant 'culture' in the world. And you know what Martha, I guess I would say a lot do not like it. Yeah its all great when its peaceful, but there are TOO MANY of those people. And if they do come, and they are coming, and are birthing more people, then society WILL change.  There are many people who do not like that.  Its all well and good until there are too many of 'those people' and my gosh, its all changing.  And like here in the US, some people son't want other langugages taught, like  the dress code, etc etc. Well with more immigrants it will change.

People are WAY too group identified.. I'm US, I'm British, I'm Pakistani etc. But we are all a product of our societies.  I think most people, no matter their culture are just ignorant. They just don't know.
 
Salaams Hayfa,
I think the media is responsible from all sides to get stories correct and not portray something that isn't.
THe main percentage of the UK population understand that times are changing. Some have a problem with that, but the majority are OK for example with immigrants that follow the rules. WHy would we not be? THe British governmentfor example are always saying it is good for the economy. I am BRitish by birth, but I embrace other cultures. I love people. I love to understand. And I do not let my nationality prevent me from moving with the times.
But the communication must be from all sides.  Like you say, people are ignorant and don;t know. This makes them scared. It doesn't mean though that people should hide away and not try to understand...everything and from all angles.
Changes will take time. The |UK is very small in comparison to other countries and there is little room left to move about. Maybe one day the UK will sink, lol.
 
 
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