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Akhe Abdullah
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2009 at 8:44am
Originally posted by martha

Does that mean 'yes'? [IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Confused" />
Laa(No)Na'am(Yes)Arabic through English translations.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 18 July 2009 at 8:44am
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Akhe Abdullah
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2009 at 9:32am
Originally posted by Natassia

[QUOTE=Akhe Abdullah] [QUOTE=Natassia] Like I said, Muslims believe these thoughts are recorded in the Quran, and Christians believe these thoughts are recorded in Jesus Christ.

Yes, God's expression is also found in creation.


However, creation does not necessarily point to Islam. It simply points to the Creator.
You think you know what Muslim believe?I'm a Muslim and I believe that thoughts are for Humans,We can't contribute Human functions to Allah,only that they come from Him,(ALHamduillah)All praise is due to Allah.To us Muslims Allah is Almighty,Creator and Sustainer of the universe,Who is similar to nothing and nothing is comparable to Him(AllahuAkbar)Allah is most high. Corrections:you say that creation does not necessarily point to Islam.Sister dont get it twisted,Islam means peace,submission and obedience.Islam actually explains the existance of life.Everthing submit to Allah ,Everthing!
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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2009 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Originally posted by martha

Does that mean 'yes'?  [IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Confused" />
Laa(No)Na'am(Yes)Arabic through English translations.
 
 
THankyou brotherSmile
 
 
 
 
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Akhe Abdullah
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2009 at 2:40pm
Salams, Martha.ALHamduillah!La moshkelah(no problem!)May Allah Bless you.
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2009 at 12:34am
Originally posted by Natassia

Originally posted by martha

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

[QUOTE=Natassia]
Muslims believe the word of God came to earth in the form of a book.
Not necessarily,

2:117- To Him is due The primal orgin Of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter,He saith to it: "Be",And it is.see there's the Word of Allah. I would'nt compare the Bible to Hadith,You see Hadith was reported by The companions (May Allah be pleased with them.)of Prophet Muhammed(SAW)who actually knew him.
 
You could argue though that the New Testament is also  Hadith?...as it was written by companions of Jesus who actually knew him. Any ideas?
 
I would say the New Testament is more like the Hadith.  The Hadith have Quran verses, but they also explain the context of them from the point-of-view of the narrators.  Sometimes you have one story being told by three different people, and so the hadiths somewhat differ in details.  However, it doesn't necessarily mean the event didn't happen.
 
 
I would say that is not only inaccruate but a complete misunderstanding of what the hadith are and a sophmoric approach to the NT.
 
1) Unfortunately I am having to over simplify the science of hadith which I am no scholar of. But the foundation of hadith is "isnaad". A scholar once said (the teacher of Imam Al Bukhari in fact if my memory is correct) that "The isnaad is from the deen, were it not for the isnaad, whosoever willed could say whatever he wished." This system has given us "confidence" in the information.
 
2) The NT accounts have no isnaad. In fact, there was no methodology in figuring out who said what, what was fact, what was fiction, the reliability of those who told stories, nor was there any method for transmitting the info orally or written. With this in mind, you have four accounts that began as oral accounts that developed from different areas (regions) with differing authers who wished to put accross their point of view which also developed in different time periods. To say that all four accounts are really four perspectives like four different witnesses to an event is complete rubbish. These stories were influenced by their time periods, their geographical location, and the point of view their tellers and later their copiests wanted to convey. Furthermore, the "proto-orthodox" (the group whose theological ideologies modern christians inherited their knowledge from) had no solid method for discerning which accounts were true and which were false. Keep in mind that there were many different accounts floating around in differing regoins. They simply chose based upon their theological views.
 
3) As the stories in the NT devleoped, it is obvious to see that Christology also grew with a higher Christology as time developed. These are not four witnesses to the same event, these are four unique stories with unique perspectives. I believe the writers intentions have been lost in the need of Christians to force harmonizations onto them which does nothing but create a fifth gospel.
 
 
I am not saying that nothing accurate exists, I am saying that historical accuracy was not on the minds of those who formed your cannon (which is why the christian creeds do not force one to declare that the NT is the inspired word of God), and that we have no way of actually knowing what is truth and what is theological truth (the two are not necessarily the same things)
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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2009 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by Andalus

 I would say that is not only inaccruate but a complete misunderstanding of what the hadith are and a sophmoric approach to the NT.
 
1) Unfortunately I am having to over simplify the science of hadith which I am no scholar of. But the foundation of hadith is "isnaad". A scholar once said (the teacher of Imam Al Bukhari in fact if my memory is correct) that "The isnaad is from the deen, were it not for the isnaad, whosoever willed could say whatever he wished." This system has given us "confidence" in the information.
 
2) The NT accounts have no isnaad. In fact, there was no methodology in figuring out who said what, what was fact, what was fiction, the reliability of those who told stories, nor was there any method for transmitting the info orally or written. With this in mind, you have four accounts that began as oral accounts that developed from different areas (regions) with differing authers who wished to put accross their point of view which also developed in different time periods. To say that all four accounts are really four perspectives like four different witnesses to an event is complete rubbish. These stories were influenced by their time periods, their geographical location, and the point of view their tellers and later their copiests wanted to convey. Furthermore, the "proto-orthodox" (the group whose theological ideologies modern christians inherited their knowledge from) had no solid method for discerning which accounts were true and which were false. Keep in mind that there were many different accounts floating around in differing regoins. They simply chose based upon their theological views.
 
3) As the stories in the NT devleoped, it is obvious to see that Christology also grew with a higher Christology as time developed. These are not four witnesses to the same event, these are four unique stories with unique perspectives. I believe the writers intentions have been lost in the need of Christians to force harmonizations onto them which does nothing but create a fifth gospel.
 
 
I am not saying that nothing accurate exists, I am saying that historical accuracy was not on the minds of those who formed your cannon (which is why the christian creeds do not force one to declare that the NT is the inspired word of God), and that we have no way of actually knowing what is truth and what is theological truth (the two are not necessarily the same things)
 
 
1) And isnads have been forged before. Besides, Bukhari did not compile and write down his collection until about 200 years after the actual events in question. The hadith were passed along orally by devoted followers of Muhammad. The gospels were passed along orally by devoted followers of Jesus and written down within the 1st century AD. The epistles were first written down...never orally passed along.
 
2) Actually, it is likely that the writers of the gospels relied on a shared primary source for many of Christ's "sayings". The same source was likely relied upon for the Coptic Gospel of Thomas and probably even the Didache. Just as the hadith, sirah, and Quran itself could easily have been influenced by the biases of Muslims, so the gospels could easily have been influenced by the biases of Christians. But that's okay. That's how you find out the true BELIEFS of the earliest followers...because that's what really matters. The epistles of Paul are actually the EARLIEST Christian theological writings that we have (like Romans and Galatians). They predate the gospels by about 15-20 years. You want to understand Islam--read the Quran. You want to understand Christianity--read the epistles of Paul--the ones even the most liberal of scholars agree were written by him.
 
3) You can argue that with the gospels as well as with the Gnostic and apocryphal writings. You can't argue that with the epistles. There is no need to force harmonizations on the gospels unless you believe they are all the verbatim words of God. None of the authors of the gospels claimed to have been recording the verbatim words of God. So, it is likely a conservative, fundamental (and probably Protestant) doctrine to believe the scriptures are 100% God's spoken word. This is not something supported by the scriptures themselves.
 
4) The authors of the gospels were not historians. They weren't concerned with presenting a history text book for readers 2000 years in the future. Their goal was to combat the gnostic heresies going around as well as to spread the Good News about Jesus Christ. The theology of the gospel is the same throughout the gospels and epistles, regardless of contradictions between the details of events: "Repent and believe in the salvation given by God though the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth."
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 5:53am

Natassias - "They predate the gospels by about 15-20 years."

Have you noticed though that Paul was referencing the Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles.

1 Corinthians 15

 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote Natassia Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 7:01am
Originally posted by believer

Natassias - "They predate the gospels by about 15-20 years."

Have you noticed though that Paul was referencing the Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles.

1 Corinthians 15

 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

I think perhaps you should figure out what the GOSPEL itself is. The gospel was spread via word-of-mouth. Paul's letters were written to churches who had already heard and accepted the gospel. His letters predate the written gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And care to explain what "the Scriptures" exactly are in those verses you've quoted? The Bible didn't exist yet. The four gospels hadn't been written yet. The Tanakh/Old Testament canon had not been firmly established yet.

I prefer not to ASSUME things.

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