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Message Icon Event: RIP Micheal Jackson - Event Date: 25 June 2009 Post Reply Post New Topic
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Gibbs
 
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Quote Gibbs Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2009 at 11:15am
Let me address a couple comments and then I'll drive my final point home because of course we can only talk about this subject so much before we lose interest. First off, let me again say none of us knew MJ. Sure, his behavior is weird by societal standards because him being his age it is not considered "normal" or common for a grown man to be in bed with young children not of his own lineage.
 
But in using an example let me first say I mean this with no offense to Muslims, Islam, or the Islamic culture. But in comparison to the weird behavior of a man with young children let us look at the criticism of Muhammad and his young wife. Now I understand Muslims are quite defensive about the critique of his union with Aisha, and I've heard both the critique and the apologetic arguments. I personally am willing to consider that this was a socio-political union not purely sexual one, and that this perhaps was a custom common in those times.
 
Considering all of that I personally as a husband, with two young children of my own still find it "weird" that such a man of his stature would consider such a sociopolitical move in light of his previous wife (Khadijah). Why? Because as a post-modern thinker (of sorts) I would say that the level of maturity, and intelligence, as well as life experience is a huge difference. Despite the reverence Muslims have for Muhammad, I'm sure if he were to live in our times not all Muslims would allow their children to be wed or sleep with him. I'm sure most would because of his prophetic background but not all and I'm sure if he were to live in our current social climate as MJ I'm sure his behavior (with respect to the issue of grown men sleeping with children) would be looked at comparable to the American cults of so-called prophets who have sexual relations with young kids in their camp.
 
Again as I mentioned to Abuayisha it is the perspective of the spectator in labeling these individuals as weird and the like. Now if you ask me would I as a parent allow my kids to sleep with MJ I would say no. It's not because of the molestation issue because he was found not guilty but its a stranger issue. Regardless of my love for his music and dance, I do not teach my kids to be comfortable with strangers this includes entertainers. I don't care if the stranger is Michael Jordan I would not teach my kids to do that because after the day is done if children are taught to sleep with strangers then its easy for them to fall prey in the streets if some sick individual baits them to get in the car with them and kidnapp.
 
Also, you guys need to also consider the parents responsible. I hold parents more responsible than MJ himself. It is the parents that allow their children and please dont say "but they didn't know their kids would be in the same bed" because regardless whether in the same bed or same house they are in the company of someone that is not of their own family. I think the parents are so caught up in the glow of MJ and his generousity that they are willing to lay down their defensive guard as a parent to allow their kids to be with him. So instead of criticizing MJ criticize the parents.
 
"Where there is a smoke there is a fire...the Chandlers were paid $22 million and Arvizos with good attorneys he got off the hook then which court in the US could find MJ guilty."
 
As mentioned before its your perspective. But like I told abuayisha if MJ was truly guilty the parents would forgoe the money and seek justice instead of selling their abused child out for $22 million. The fact that MJ paid means nothing and does not necessitate guilt. People settle out of court all the time because it costs to go to court. When I was younger I worked as a paralegal so I understand the costs of going to court. Again nobody should sell their abused child out for $22 million I don't care how good it looks. There are psychological repricussions for doing such acts.
 
 
Finally John ( John & Ken show)asked Rev Jesse J a MJ's supporter  ... Would he allow his young son to sleep in MJ's bed? and he said no ...
 
Again, this does not mean he is a molestor because he could have his own personal reasons. For one, the paparazzi is so coniving if they knew that Jesse J left his kids with MJ after all the swirling allegations of his molestation charges he would also suffer the consequences despite his closeness to MJ. Also, another reason he could have is the same as mine. He could be teaching his kids to not sleep with strangers. Who knows what his reasons are and yes, one of his reasons could be that he believes that MJ is a pedophile. However unless you can show me why he said no, you really havent shown that means he is guilty of something.
 
Finally, I know MJ is bizarre yes that is quite obvious through his media antics. MJ an attractive black man who bleached his skin to resemble "white people" is an bizarre act, but there are greater tragedies and bizarre things in the world. Unfortunately because MJ is so popular and well-known his acts will be scrutinized by the media and by us. I say, let him go and be with his Creator in peace and allow his soul to rest. Rather think negatively of him in this life wish peace for him in the hereafter as you Muslims hope to acheive, because frankly I don't think criticizing his behavior attitude is "Muslim like" especially since it is reported he too converted to Islam. 
 


Edited by Gibbs - 08 July 2009 at 11:15am
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2009 at 12:59pm
"sigh"
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2009 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Gibbs in Black

Let me address a couple comments and then I'll drive my final point home because of course we can only talk about this subject so much before we lose interest. First off, let me again say none of us knew MJ. Sure, his behavior is weird by societal standards because him being his age it is not considered "normal" or common for a grown man to be in bed with young children(say boys for clarity)not of his own lineage.
 
But in using an example let me first say I mean this with no offense to Muslims, Islam, or the Islamic culture. But in comparison to the weird behavior of a man with young children let us look at the criticism of Muhammad and his young wife.
You are comparing apples with oranges for obfuscating the subject...
Now I understand Muslims are quite defensive about the critique of his union with Aisha, and I've heard both the critique and the apologetic arguments. I personally am willing to consider that this was a socio-political union not purely sexual one, and that this perhaps was a custom common in those times.
Let us not mince words here husband and wife relationship is what it is... ...Aren't you acting like a troll?  I have seen a lot of your ilk come and go so you have shown your true colors...I will watch you from now on....
 
Considering all of that I personally as a husband, with two young children of my own still find it "weird" that such a man of his stature would consider such a sociopolitical move in light of his previous wife (Khadijah). Why? Because as a post-modern thinker (of sorts) I would say that the level of maturity, and intelligence, as well as life experience is a huge difference. Despite the reverence Muslims have for Muhammad, I'm sure if he were to live in our times not all Muslims would allow their children to be wed or sleep with him.
The way you put it you are talking from both ends of you mouth putting wed or sleep as same ...the discussion is about boys ...I know the day is not very far in your world you would be wedding with young boys...
I'm sure most would because of his prophetic background but not all and I'm sure if he were to live in our current social climate as MJ I'm sure his behavior (with respect to the issue of grown men sleeping with children) would be looked at comparable to the American cults of so-called prophets who have sexual relations with young kids in their camp.
All I can see is your anti Muhammad tirade that happens to be  western Christian agenda also that is at the core of all the wars against his lands to plant the western debauchery through it's culture of rock n roll, booze and drugs!
 

Also, you guys need to also consider the parents responsible. I hold parents more responsible than MJ himself. It is the parents that allow their children and please dont say "but they didn't know their kids would be in the same bed" because regardless whether in the same bed or same house they are in the company of someone that is not of their own family. I think the parents are so caught up in the glow of MJ and his generousity that they are willing to lay down their defensive guard as a parent to allow their kids to be with him. So instead of criticizing MJ criticize the parents.
Throw the book at all of them if you knew which book to follow a book of God's law or man made law...

As mentioned before its your perspective. But like I told abuayisha if MJ was truly guilty the parents would forgoe the money and seek justice instead of selling their abused child out for $22 million. The fact that MJ paid means nothing and does not necessitate guilt. People settle out of court all the time because it costs to go to court. When I was younger I worked as a paralegal so I understand the costs of going to court. Again nobody should sell their abused child out for $22 million I don't care how good it looks. There are psychological repricussions for doing such acts.
You must be smoking some good stuff or kidding me? you sound like a knucklehead...MJ's whole environment was crawling with bunch of whores for his money...He loved when the white trash fell for his easy money...Sign of the time !
The system starts with $$ ends with $$

This is a money hungry society that has been proven beyond any doubt after the sub prime heist of the world where money is everything and more about the Chandlers...
Today, Jordan Chandler is in his late twenties living in a $2.35 million home in Long Island under an assumed name. He and his family also own a high rise apartment in Manhattan and condo Santa Barbara ( fine places of American good life)
 
 I say, let him go and be with his Creator in peace and allow his soul to rest. Rather think negatively of him in this life wish peace for him in the hereafter as you Muslims hope to acheive, because frankly I don't think criticizing his behavior attitude is "Muslim like" especially since it is reported he too converted to Islam.
I would have if the media would let go of it! then this drama has given the hybrid president a reprieve from his faltering ratings...may be the timing of all this whole thing was god sent for Obama!
Also the dying print media also got a shot in the arm with this...

I don't know what is your problem about pushing this stuff under the rug! As I mentioned previously and you ignored it conveniently; he did not revert... an obviously a Christian show for the Christians or any other Hollywood crazy secular crowd for that matter. It is the behavior that need to be criticized so others don't try to emulate that...As a person he was his own creator tinkering with after what the creator created and he didn't stop there he created children like pets with others seed and hired
surrogates.
Your elite( the Clintons, Edwards, Sanfords, Spitzers, Ensigns Kennedys, Berlusconi
s, Katsavs and the list is endless) want to have affairs and all kinds of other sexual endeavors and you bring in Aisha's marriage to Muhammad in question...Shame on your sick soul and its  agenda not that your comment can effect change one iota the love for  both of them for their work for saving billions of souls...
You might like what Putin say about the Israeli President Katsav
:
On 19 October 2006, Putin was quoted as saying to Israeli Premier regarding the allegations surrounding Katsav, "Say hello to your president. He really surprised us... turned out to be quite a mighty man. He raped 10 women. I never expected it from him. He surprised all of us. We all envy him.:Wink

The problem is that in your world your icons start some thing that is wrong and then with power of the media n money you want us to take it hook, line and sinker...LOL



Edited by Sign*Reader - 08 July 2009 at 2:09pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote Gibbs Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2009 at 2:19pm

I sound like a troll? I thought I made it clear that it was not meant to be disrespectful. Because I make a comment which you don't agree with doesn't make me a troll. I'm not spamming, spreading hatred, nor being disrespectful here. The example of Muhammad was not comparing apples to oranges. Its about a current frame of mind looking at the cultural values of another. Call it what you want.

The problem is that in your world your icons start some thing that is wrong and then with power of the media n money you want us to take it hook, line and sinker...LOL
 
Fact of the matter is, you don't know me and I don't know you so you don't know anything about "my world." Alas I'll leave on that note.
 


Edited by Gibbs - 08 July 2009 at 2:22pm
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2009 at 7:03pm
Actually Gibbs we have to do both. We cannot slander a person but we must speak up when a wrong is a wrong.

Dangling your child out of a window is wrong. Its not slander.. Its calling into question behavior.

And he is famous, he CHOSE the life he lead as an adult. He could have gotten a 9-5 job like the rest of us .. and no one would be making comments about his life on this board or any other.

No one forced him to sing (probably haram), change his skin color (haram), remove his nose bone (haram unless for medical purposes), participate in surrogate parenthood (haram), bu millions and milions of dollars woth antigues and then 'show it off' to the world on TV.

Are the parents wrong as well.. sure.. absolutely.. but he is not absolved from self-responsibilty.. a major tenent of Islam.. 

And you think this is bad.. go to oher web sites.. I am on sports boards.. and they say far worse then anything here about him.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2009 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Gibbs

I sound like a troll? I thought I made it clear that it was not meant to be disrespectful. Because I make a comment which you don't agree with doesn't make me a troll. I'm not spamming, spreading hatred, nor being disrespectful here. The example of Muhammad was not comparing apples to oranges. Its about a current frame of mind looking at the cultural values of another. Call it what you want.

The problem is that in your world your icons start some thing that is wrong and then with power of the media n money you want us to take it hook, line and sinker...LOL
 
Fact of the matter is, you don't know me and I don't know you so you don't know anything about "my world." Alas I'll leave on that note.
 

The tree is known by the fruits and fruits of your labor are your words and your thoughts and knowledge of the history that are very obvious and they are rotten by IC standard ...Your straw man on the crticality of a marriage that was solemnized over 1400 years ago is a pathetic attempt to obfuscate the subject at hand! It is no secret from what you wrote that you don't sound well versed in the history of that era; a girl child had as much value as is these days in India or China... a disposed fetus in a bottle ... and then to be buried alive cuz she was a dishonor to be part of family so that was the level of ignorance prevailing in of Aisha's Arabia if you cared to learn...The girls were saved by the strong mothers who had survived themselves under tough circumstances or they were lucky to have reasonable fathers who let them live...After puberty their home was the husband's to be and that was where they will prosper if they bore sons ....The woman folks had absolutely zero rights...It is Islam and to some extent Aisha's role who gave woman rights cuz she was Prophets spouse .Have you forgotten the Israelite story it was nothing but a race to bear sons...And they created the Jewish mothers models...
Why do I need to know an ignorant fool like you who wants to compare the person who became the most learned woman, a scholar of the highest order a community and a military leader Aisha's marriage with MJ's sleeping with boys..Your world no matter what surely would suck and I feel sorry for your frame of mind and don't think I would wish new MJs for your children...would you discuss the following with your children.....

BTW how sordid this saga will get ........What do mean by best of my knowledge?

Jackson Doc Denies He's Kids' Dad ... Sorta

Dr. Arnold Klein appeared on 'Good Morning America' on July 8 to discuss the Jackson situation following the King of Pop's massive memorial the day before, and when the question of his possibly paternity came up, Klein left the door open. "To the best of my knowledge, I am not the father of these children," Klein told Diane Sawyer.



Edited by Sign*Reader - 08 July 2009 at 9:28pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2009 at 10:50pm

Come on members ! Whatever he was, its all over. There are many indications which say that he embraced islam. And we all know, once when a person embraces Islam all his past is forgiven by Allah swt. Let us leave his case betweem him and Allah swt.  By the way let us follow the etiquette of not speaking ill of the dead.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2009 at 3:02pm
"There are many indications which say that he embraced islam."
 
Which do you find to be the most credible?  And Why?
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