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Yusuf.
 
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Quote Yusuf. Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 3:14pm

Originally posted by b95000

Originally posted by Yusuf.

Christians slaughtered millions in their history.


I am a Christian.  This is a glib reference.  You care to elaborate on this? Just a basic review - for instance are you calling the monarchies in Europe "Christian" - Constantinople one, but like the Kings of France and England, et al?  Are you calling those guys Christians?  Shall we call Hussein a true Muslim - the rapist, mass murderer - along with his sons?

What I meant was that people claiming to be Christians: the Crusaders, for example. However, i agree; no true Christian would commit murder.

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by ZamanH

Originally posted by B95000

If you are saying that the US has done wrong things, I will not disagree with you AK47, but I ask you which country has not done wrong things...

West has been lot more worse than the rest of the world. In the last 100 years alone, they have killed more people than the people in the rest of the world have killed.

relevant article to this thread

 



From the above linked article:
"We have returned to our former habit of publicly attacking races, cultures and religions as a matter of national politics."

This is absurd.  Official US policy is not directed against Arab people nor Islam.  Period.  People can argue the implications of policy but that much is clear.

"
West has been lot more worse than the rest of the world. In the last 100 years alone, they have killed more people than the people in the rest of the world have killed."

Prove this.  Otherwise it is subjective hyperbole.
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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by AK47

Like ZamanH points out, the sheer amount of atrocities committed by the United States and its proxy nations greatly outweigh the crimes committed by other nations. For instance, the vast majority of nations that have oppressed their people in the 20th century were U.S. allies and dependents...

B: As I mentioned to ZamanH, please prove this, otherwise it is subjective hyperbole..

When Indonesia was committing atrocities against the East Timorese under Suharto, it was being supplied with the weapons to commit said atrocities by the United States under the guise of fighting "communist" insurgency in East Timor. It was only after Indonesia had outlived its usefullness to the United States that America was miraculously concerned with the welfare of East Timor. How can you even defend the United States at all?

B: If you want to get into the details of arms shipments here and there, you are going to have to broaden your criticism well beyond the US and into entire industrialized world including Russia, China and Europe to name 3 other huge players in arms dealings...has the US or US companies been wrong and done things that are wrong...sure but please be comprehensive in your criticism.  Furthermore, the way that certain groups receive arms is often extremely convoluted and doesn't lend itself easily to bi-polar moralisms of "US EVIL."

As Muslims, we do not target the United States and Israel alone for our criticism, first and foremost we target our own corrupt and immoral regimes. Why can't Americans do the same?

B: Americans do criticize our government - 24 x 7 at times...that's what we're all about in this huge, long running democratic experiment.  Can you point to the same level of dissent and results in any Arab country?  Do the leaders listen to the people?  Must they listen?  Americans often don't hear much about this internal criticism that you're talking about re: Muslim dominated governments.  Conversely we hear of your vocal criticisms of the US and Israel all the time.  Do you blame that on media coverage or on the relative dearth of the former?

Also, I was not throwing mud on the United States generally, I was stating historical fact. No nation in history has been so hypocritical, war-mongering, lying and two-faced as the United States. America's crimes began against the Native peoples of the United States already in 1776 and just expanded from there. I challenge you to disprove these historical facts on America's aggressive and imperialist behavior since its inception. Read Ward Churchill's book and disprove any of his points, all of which are historical facts (except for his points on Bosnia and Kosovo, which are completely false and I don't know where he got his information, in fact, the claims he makes regarding those two nations are CONTRARY to historical fact.)

B: Historical fact?  You haven't convinced me.  The reference you quote seems to be true as long as you agree with it and not true when you disagree...is that how we're to determine historical facts?  So before I go about disproving, or giving a different take on US history, why don't you come up with some specific beefs.



and btw: where are you from AK47?


Edited by b95000
Bruce
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Quote MPLS05 Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by AK47


P.S: for an accurate portrayal of the mass murder, rape, genocide and imperialism that the United States has ingaged in since its inception, try reading "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" by Ward Churchill (AK Press)


LOL!!  Ward Churchill.  The same man who has been accused of academic fraud, plagiarism, publishing others work without their permission, copyright infringement and most importantly, lying about his Native American heritage.  Not one person will take you serious if you mention this man's work.
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2005 at 3:20pm
And, would we take you seriously without your Real name on your profile??
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2005 at 4:03pm

It's really getting more and more interesting.

Zaman, you must believe everything B95K says because he puts a "Period" at the end of his sentences. Plus, you must agree that it's not a "stated policy" of the US government to oppress Arabs and Muslims, it just happens to run that way.

Saddam never claimed to be a Muslim.

Why should we take your above narration as some gospel truth, especially, since that "babies in incubator" spin by the Americans through Bush the Elder Mid East war? You are so knowledgeable, could you kindly enlighten us about poor April Glaspie's fate? You may remember, she was your Ambassador in Baghdad when Saddam ran Kuwait over.

My friend it's a bit of an uphill task these days to correct the image and, the taste your government (and, specially, the New American Century project) has left with people around the world. I suggest if you spent half as much energy and got your admin to adapt a wee humane policies, it might help, not just the world but also the people of the United States of America.

Best of luck

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2005 at 4:09pm

When any people are attacked and occupied, with bogus reason and sheer criminal intent it's not just Jihaad but also the simplest most basic right of those people to fight and despatch the invaders - with whatever means at their disposal.

Does that make any sense or we should not fight for our freedoms if it's the Americans at the other end?

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Yusuf.
 
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Quote Yusuf. Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2005 at 6:56pm

Assalamu alaikum,

The "stolen incubator" story is a proven lie:

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~marto/aip/mcohen.htm

Yusuf
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