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Message Icon Topic: ’just jihad?’ Post Reply Post New Topic
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Yusuf.
 
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Quote Yusuf. Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2005 at 9:26pm

There are, in fact, very few radical groups in the Middle East. The sad fact is that, owing to the sophistication of modern technology, a small group of individuals can cause massive destruction, particularly when they are willing to die in the process. For example, had Al-Qaeda existed 100 years ago and had similar grievances with the United States there would have been very little they could have done. But in fact, 19 individuals were actually the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks. This equals an infintesimal fraction of the Muslim world population.

As far as combatting terrorism, the methodology of terrorism worked out by Mikhail Bakunin and Sergei Nechaev in the 1870s has proven impossible to stop. The formation of small, semi-autonomous cells allows rapid restructuring with minimum losses. The Russians against the anarchists, the British against the IRA, the Spanish against the Basque separatists stand as convincing proof that terrorism cannot be stopped by any currently known means. Therefore, to try to become involved in combatting terrorists is futile, and the only sane course for a Muslim to follow is to practice one's religion faithfully and raise one's children properly so that they do not become involved in such activities.

I used to be one of those who ran high and low in my community denouncing terrorism as unislamic, as did many of my brothers and sisters. But there were two consistent reactions: some people said they already knew that true Muslims would not commit acts of terror, and so therefore there was no need to reinforce this idea. Others were never satisfied, always found something lacking in my explanations, or simply accused me of trying to save my own skin from backlash. I tried to deal with these people for a long time, and finally came to the conclusion that no evidence or demonstration would be sufficient to convince them. Therefore, I concluded there is nothing to be gained from such demonstrations.

As for America's imperial policy, I refer you to A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order by F. William Engdahl, Pluto Press, 2004. The subject is far too complex and detailed to engage in a discussion here, but this book will give you a good introduction.



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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2005 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

The Russians against the anarchists, the British against the IRA, the Spanish against the Basque separatists stand as convincing proof that terrorism cannot be stopped by any currently known means. Therefore, to try to become involved in combatting terrorists is futile, and the only sane course for a Muslim to follow is to practice one's religion faithfully and raise one's children properly so that they do not become involved in such activities.


Yusef:
Thanks for the book referral..I'll check it out.  I have no illusions that there are imperialistic impulses in the US.  That said, this country began as a reaction to, a revolution against imperialism, so glibly tossing around imperialism charges against the US flies in the face of her history - this history I know very well but I will look over your recommended piece.  I know that the US has committed sins - but I also know that every last person, group and nation has committed sins - so again, to level charges against one and not the other without discussions of degrees is fairly useless...

As to your examples, just because terrorism per se, cannot be eliminated does NOT mean it cannot and should not be combatted and ameliorated.  Such an approach, ignoring it, emboldens the terrorists and will allow them to raise the stakes...are you seriously suggesting that the authorities in the world, of whom we are their charges, should just ignore AQ?  Something like 1/2 to 3/4 of AQ has been killed or captured and the philosophy that gives rise to AQ, the notion that somehow jihad in the name of Allah is justified whereby INNOCENT people are slaughtered in the name of a peaceful God - has been more and more exposed.  This philosophy of "Faith" by murder is just vile.  Some people see it as zealous or nationalistic but it is purely murderous evil and it is being done in the name of Islam. 

We've been talking about whether these extremists are a problem for Islam and the fact of the matter is that the preponderence of terror acts in the world recently have been carried out by these Muslim extremists...what is it about Islam as separate from say other organized religions that either allows this (as in your attitude of just ignoring this and living a faithful life - good to live a faithful life, but I like your earlier approach to talk this up and to do it faithfully even if it is unpopular - believe me, I know about unpopular causes and sometimes you just have to commit this approach to God and pray that He'll bless it), or is it the culture of the core Islamic area that allow such extremism?

I'm really trying to understand this...you just don't hear about "Christians" blowing themselves up all the time, in the Name of Christ.  Why?  My take on this is that there was violence in Christianity at some points - but that has been worked through.  Christianity is an older Faith than Islam - perhaps Islam needs to work this out!

I think, if you ask me, this is a great test for Islam.  How they work this out will really be important to an unbelieving world that's watching.

Don't you agree?


Edited by b95000
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Yusuf.
 
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Quote Yusuf. Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2005 at 10:14pm

I still do try to spread the message that Islam is a religion of peace at times. As for other religions, you are correct: Christians slaughtered millions in their history. The Hindu sect of Kali also murdered many innocents.

The means for the regeneration of the Ummah can be found in the writings of Bediuzzaman Said Nursi. It is his example I follow and spread to other Muslims. His Damascus Sermon is a good introduction to his ideas:

http://www.saidnur.com/foreign/en/risaleler/sermon1.htm

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2005 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

Christians slaughtered millions in their history.


I am a Christian.  This is a glib reference.  You care to elaborate on this? Just a basic review - for instance are you calling the monarchies in Europe "Christian" - Constantinople one, but like the Kings of France and England, et al?  Are you calling those guys Christians?  Shall we call Hussein a true Muslim - the rapist, mass murderer - along with his sons?
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Quote AK47 Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 12:08am

To b95000:

Who is this Hussein that you refer to? There have been many Hussein's in the history of Islam, you'll have to elaborate. And if you are referring to Imam Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet (SAWS), then what do you mean by calling him such vile things such as "rapist, mass murderer"? Do you have any factual evidence, any historical references to back up these outlandish and disgusting accusations, or is it just something that you heard from Falwell?

P.S: for an accurate portrayal of the mass murder, rape, genocide and imperialism that the United States has ingaged in since its inception, try reading "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" by Ward Churchill (AK Press)

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 12:27am
Originally posted by AK47

To b95000:

Who is this Hussein that you refer to? There have been many Hussein's in the history of Islam, you'll have to elaborate. And if you are referring to Imam Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet (SAWS), then what do you mean by calling him such vile things such as "rapist, mass murderer"? Do you have any factual evidence, any historical references to back up these outlandish and disgusting accusations, or is it just something that you heard from Falwell?

P.S: for an accurate portrayal of the mass murder, rape, genocide and imperialism that the United States has ingaged in since its inception, try reading "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" by Ward Churchill (AK Press)



Well, I was referring to Saddam Hussein, so calm down there..
You then go on to throw the assumed mud I was throwing onto the US generally "since its inception."  What kind of tripe is that?  Or is that just something you heard from the fiery imam TV evangelist?

If you are saying that the US has done wrong things, I will not disagree with you AK47, but I ask you which country has not done wrong things...is that ALL you see and know of the USA?  That is a shame and reveals the kind of person that would 'jump to conclusions' as you did with my reference to Saddam Hussein, the rapist murderer and his sons, in kind..

Here's an example of the brutality of Saddam from Ahmad at Iraq Expat:
http://jarrarsupariver.blogspot.com/
Ahmad: Very hard. Hard because you are not only suppose to not criticise, but you are suppose to praise what you hate with passion. It is hard because you are living in a big lie and you can't talk about it; you can trust no one. On top of that, and even if you are compliant, you might get into trouble or get killed at any moment without any reasons. For example, Omar Sabawi, Saddam's nephew was driving in al Arasat when he started looking and flirting with some girls in a car. That car was being driven by the girls brother, and their mother was with them. When the brother noticed, he drove away and didn't give way to Omar. Omar and his bodyguards stopped the car and wanted to kill the brother. The mother pleaded for her son's life, she dropped on her knees in the street and kissed Omar's shoe to save her son's life; finally Omar agreed to save her son's life if the son is willing to close his eyes and open his mouth so that Omar can spit in his mouth. The mother begged her son to accept, and he did. When the son closed his eyes and opened his mouth, Omar put the gun in the son's mouth and killed him. Omar and the bodyguards drove away and people in the street where standing by watching but can do nothing to stop it.


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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 1:25am

Originally posted by B95000

If you are saying that the US has done wrong things, I will not disagree with you AK47, but I ask you which country has not done wrong things...

West has been lot more worse than the rest of the world. In the last 100 years alone, they have killed more people than the people in the rest of the world have killed.

relevant article to this thread

 

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Quote AK47 Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 10:04am

Well, like I said, there have been many Hussein's, the most famous of which was the grandson of the Prophet (SAWS), so when you said "Hussein" I was taken aback, since in the West Saddam Hussein is always referred to as "Saddam".

Yes Saddam was a murderer, a tyrant and an egomaniac, as are the vast majority of governments in Muslim states, as such I won't disagree with you that many nations, many cultures and empires have committed atrocities, but like ZamanH points out, the sheer amount of atrocities committed by the United States and its proxy nations greatly outweigh the crimes committed by other nations. For instance, the vast majority of nations that have oppressed their people in the 20th century were U.S. allies and dependents (excluding the Soviet Union and China of course, who committed innumberable crimes themselves). When Indonesia was committing atrocities against the East Timorese under Suharto, it was being supplied with the weapons to commit said atrocities by the United States under the guise of fighting "communist" insurgency in East Timor. It was only after Indonesia had outlived its usefullness to the United States that America was miraculously concerned with the welfare of East Timor. How can you even defend the United States at all? As Muslims, we do not target the United States and Israel alone for our criticism, first and foremost we target our own corrupt and immoral regimes. Why can't Americans do the same?

Also, I was not throwing mud on the United States generally, I was stating historical fact. No nation in history has been so hypocritical, war-mongering, lying and two-faced as the United States. America's crimes began against the Native peoples of the United States already in 1776 and just expanded from there. I challenge you to disprove these historical facts on America's aggressive and imperialist behavior since its inception. Read Ward Churchill's book and disprove any of his points, all of which are historical facts (except for his points on Bosnia and Kosovo, which are completely false and I don't know where he got his information, in fact, the claims he makes regarding those two nations are CONTRARY to historical fact.)

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