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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2005 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by jibreel

Originally posted by b95000


Originally posted by jibreel

U.S.A and ISRAEL has been the cause of all the violence
around the world,


That is ludicrous and you know it...you're only going to get Sasha to bite
on that lure...

Jibreel, what do you think about the nature of people (nature of
mankind?)  I say we're all fighting part of us that is
evil/selfish/greedy by nature.  If you disagree and somehow think
only Americans and Israelis suffer from this malady, then I feel sorry
for you - as you labor under a grand illusion about yourself...

I do not agree that all Israelis and all americans are the same, i believe
that individuals who cowardly give up themselves to submit to
evil temptations become evil, do you agree?

B: I agree to that and I thank you for not placing all Americans or all Israelis in the same huge pot...but you have said, "U.S.A and ISRAEL has been the cause of all the violence around the world" ???  How can you believe this, really?

Every person is responsible for there very own actions.

B: Yes, also true, I agree...

if you do, then submit to ALLAH, even if you are a Jew or Christian, DO
WHAT YOUR RELIGION ASKS YOU TO DO AND MOVE ON.

Peace is what comes from your ways of life, not what a country promises
and which changes all the time from one leader to the next perverted.,
rarely will you find a honest King these days who has not been
assassinated some say.

B: Really, Jibreel, we agree on these points.  I just disagree with you that all the violence in the world has been caused by the US and Israel...I think that is just too illogical a leap for anyone to make..
Bruce
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jibreel
 
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Quote jibreel Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2005 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by b95000

   I just disagree with you that all the violence in the
world has been caused by the US and Israel...I think that is just too
illogical a leap for anyone to make..


Check your facts and Prove it to be wrong then?   

I do not agree that all Muslims should be put in one melting pot by you,
this is the impression you have been giving all along since you have little
knowledge of Islam around here.

The fact is that a country is not the same as a faith,
A country can not hold people responsible as citizens against there
beliefs and to ask them too when they already committed to paying there
tax is clearly a argument with the hostilities of the Roman Empire and
why the U.S. supposed of to existed in the first place., breaking away of
mediocre hypocrisy of Paul's religion and its power hungry perverts.

But this never had anything to do with Islam, and it only testifies that
Islam is the true religion when westernized religions treat each other with
hostile manners due to power struggles., there religion then fails to stand
as a nation and is devided from all this.

i have come to the conclusion that you think the generations before us
who have made mistakes are not responsible for all these wars today,
when indeed they put people on the map where they do NOT belong or
asked to go.

We can go on forever if you have been ignoring my posts al this time,
because the very things you agreed to above are disagreed to by Zionists
and those in the U.S. behind a democracy hiding in a fascist corporate
world.

Ask me for links to any information you think you have doubt and i will
post the answers, it seems that no matter what the topic is it all boils
down to the very people who do not want to change from there
submission to evil rather then to ALLAH.

As of Today, Israel has no right and should of pulled out a long time ago
before they carried out atrocities.

And the U.S. and zionist supporters should be exposed.
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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2005 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by jibreel

Originally posted by b95000

   I just disagree with you that all the violence in the
world has been caused by the US and Israel...I think that is just too
illogical a leap for anyone to make..


Check your facts and Prove it to be wrong then?   

B: Please, common sense alone dictates the ridiculousness of this absolute statement.  The nature of man is my evidence.  I need go no further.  You use no diplomacy with inflammatory false statements like that.  I could easily go into a more extensive treatment of this, but that should really be enough to prove my point unless you believe that people are somehow inherently different - i.e. a racialist argument.  I do not think so and most do not think that people are very different at our core.  In fact the biologists now tell us that all racial differences arise from only 1/2 of 1% of our genetic codes and that all other parts of human beings are similar. (c.f. Ken Ham)

I do not agree that all Muslims should be put in one melting pot by you,
this is the impression you have been giving all along since you have little
knowledge of Islam around here.

B: I have certainly not been saying that.  Where have you gotten that impression Jibreel?

The fact is that a country is not the same as a faith,
A country can not hold people responsible as citizens against there
beliefs and to ask them too when they already committed to paying there
tax is clearly a argument with the hostilities of the Roman Empire and
why the U.S. supposed of to existed in the first place., breaking away of
mediocre hypocrisy of Paul's religion and its power hungry perverts.

But this never had anything to do with Islam,

B: You don't think Islam has been politicized at all, ever?  I think that is another absolute statement that you will never be able to defend.  You're fond of these never, always, 100% statements at times, aren't you?

and it only testifies that
Islam is the true religion when westernized religions treat each other with
hostile manners due to power struggles., there religion then fails to stand
as a nation and is devided from all this.

B: I will never argue that Christianity, for instance has its full house in order - but you think Islam and Muslims do?  Please!  A little reality check..Perhaps you should focus your efforts on encouraging your brothers and sisters to uphold the Scriptures and not as much on claiming absolute wrongs with others and right with Islam (as presently practiced.)  That would be a good mature view, in my humble opinion...but you're entitled to your opinions, however faulty they evidently appear to be, as long as they don't contribute to violence against the innocent..

i have come to the conclusion that you think the generations before us
who have made mistakes are not responsible for all these wars today,
when indeed they put people on the map where they do NOT belong or
asked to go.

We can go on forever if you have been ignoring my posts al this time,
because the very things you agreed to above are disagreed to by Zionists
and those in the U.S. behind a democracy hiding in a fascist corporate
world.

B: I do not defend "all things American" or "all things corporate" or "all things Israel" - neither should you obsessively oppose those entities for no apparent reason.  To claim that Jews, as it appears you are claiming, have no right to be in and near Jerusalem and their holy cities is just ludicrous...how can you even go there and say the don't 'belong' there?

Ask me for links to any information you think you have doubt and i will
post the answers, it seems that no matter what the topic is it all boils
down to the very people who do not want to change from there
submission to evil rather then to ALLAH.

B: I agree Jibreel, much of the ills in the world are actually due to the lack of faithfulness of the faithful.  However, this is, of all the things we discuss, in our hands to change, isn't it?
Bruce
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Goerge the Jew
 
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Quote Goerge the Jew Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2005 at 7:41am
I do not agree with any of you

America is about no religion, you want to get the job done then do it
yourself


"I wish I wasn't the war president. Who in the heck wants to be a war president? I don't." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish
fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6). , if you have a problem with this then your been anti-Semitic cuz i aint .
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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2005 at 6:22pm
Yawn, scroll........
Bruce
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abujamal
 
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Quote abujamal Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2005 at 2:28pm

Jihad is expending (one’s) effort/ability in fighting in the way of Allah directly (mubashira) or assisting by wealth or opinion or increasing numbers or other than that. The fighting to raise the word of Allah is jihad. As for jihad by opinion in the way of Allah, this is jihad is the opinion relates directly to fighting in the way of Allah. If it does not relate directly to this, it is not Shar’a jihad even if it involves difficulty (mashaqqa) and even if there results benefits in raising the word of Allah. This is because jihad in Shar’a is specific to fighting, so there enters within it everything related directly to fighting. Similar to the opinion is writing and speaking; they are jihad if they are related directly to fighting in the way of Allah like the speech to the army to encourage it to fight directly or words inciting fighting the enemies. If not, they are not (jihad). Neither political struggle nor rebuking (muqari’a) the rulers is termed jihad though their reward is high and their benefit to the Muslims great. The question/issue is not difficulty nor the benefit, but rather it is the Shar’a meaning with which it came for this word. The Shari’ah meaning is fighting and all that it related to it of opinion, speech, writing, strategy (makeeda) and other (similar) things.

The cause of jihad is not jizyah even though we stop (fighting) them when they accept the jizyah. Rather, the cause of jihad is that those whom we fight are disbelievers (kuffar) who rejected the da’wah. The Supreme said: “Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the deen of truth among the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah from their hands while they are humiliated” [TMQ 9:29]. The command to fight them due to their attribute of disbelief (kufr) i.e. fight them because they do not believe in Allah and the Last Day etc…so this description/attribute is a restriction (qayd) and at this point it becomes a cause (sabab). So the cause of fighting is disbelief. It came in another ayah: “O you who believe, fight those who encircle you (close to you geographically) of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you” [TMQ Tawba ] so the command to fight them is due to the attribute of disbelief. There are many similar ayat such as: “Fight the allies of Satan” [TMQ ] (and) “Fight the leaders of disbelief” [TMQ 9: ] (and) “Fight the polytheists altogether” [TMQ ] (which) all command the fighting due to a specific attribute which is the cause of fighting i.e. disbelief. As for the payment of jizyah, the Qur’an made it together with humiliation as the cause of stopping the fighting not the cause of fighting. Frome here it came that the cause of jihad is disbelief. If those whom we fight accept the da’wah they become Muslims; if they refuse to accept Islam (but) accept to pay the jizyah and be ruled by Islam, it is accepted from them and they are not fought as it is not permitted to force them to accept Islam. As long as they accept to be ruled by it and pay the jizyah, they have submitted to the da’wah even if they have not accepted Islam. Accordingly, it is not allowed to fight them after they accept to be ruled by it and pay the jizyah. However, if they accept to pay the jizyah but refuse to be ruled by Islam, it is not allowed to accept this from them because the cause of fighting—which is that they are disbelievers who have refused to accept the da’wah—remains standing so fighting them remains obligatory, an obligation which has not fallen from the Muslims’ necks. As for the emergency treaties (mu’ahadat idhtirariyya) in which the Khaleefah accepts from them the jizyah while leaving them to rule themselves by the system of disbelief, due to the absence of (muwatat) of the external and internal circumstances for it, the Shar’a gave concession (rakhasa) to this emergency situation in the situations of necessity so no analogy is done upon it. Therefore the cause of jihad is that those whom we fight are disbelievers who refused to accept the da’wah and there is no other cause for jihad.

As for jizyah together with humiliation being a cause to stop fighting, this is only with non-polytheist Arabs. As for polytheist Arabs, it is not accepted from them except Islam or fighting due to the Supreme’s statement: “You will fight them or they will become Muslims” [TMQ ].

Jihad is obligatory by the explicit text (nass) of the Qur’an and Hadith. The Supreme said: “Fight them so that there remains no (fitnah) and the deen becomes wholly/only for Allah”[TMQ 2: ] and He said: “Fight those who don’t believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the deen of truth among the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah from their hands while they are humiliated” [TMQ 9: ] and the Supreme said: “If you do not go out (for jihad), He will punish you with a painful punishment” [TMQ 9: ] and He said: “O you who believe, fight those who encircle you of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you” [TMQ 9: ]. From Anas who said: “The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “Fight the polytheists with your wealth, your hands and your tongues” (narrated by An-Nisai). Also from Anas that the Prophet (SAW) said: “A morning in the way of Allah, or an evening, are better than the world and what is within it” (narrated by Al-Bukhari). He also narrated that he (SAW) said: “I was commanded to fight the people until they say ‘There is no god but Allah’”. Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawud narrated from Anas who said: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “…Jihad (madhi) from when Allah sent me until the last of my Ummah fights the Dajjal. It will not be invalidated by the tyranny of the tyrant or the justice of the just (leader).”

From Zayd bin Khalid who said: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “Whoever prepares a warrior (ghazi) in the way of Allah has (also) fought, and whoever takes care of his family in goodness (khayr) after him has (also) fought” (narrated by Ahmad). From ‘Ata bin Yazid al-Laithi that Abud Said al-Khudri (RA) related to him: “It was said: O Messenger of Allah, which of the people is better? The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: ‘A believer who does jihad in the way of Allah by his body and wealth” (narrated by Al-Bukhari). And he (AS) said: “Whoever dies without fighting or his soul thinking of fighting has died upon a branch of hypocrisy.” From Abi Awfa that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “Know that paradise is beneath the shade of swords” (narrated by Al-Bukhari). From Abu Hurayra who said: “One of the Sahabah of the Messenger of Allah (SAW) passed by a ravine  with rivers of sweet water in it and was astounded by its beauty, so he said: What if I separated from the people and stayed in this ravine? But I will never do it until I seek permission from the Messenger of Allah (SAW) so he mentioned that to the Messenger of Allah who said: Do not do (so) for the standing of one of you in the way of Allah is better than his praying in his house for seventy years” (narrated by At-Tirmidhi). Jihad is a collective obligation (fard kifayah) offensively (ibtida’a), and an individual obligation (fard ‘ayn) against the enemy who attacks them while being a collective obligation upon the rest. The obligation does not fall until the enemy is expelled and the Islamic land liberated from their filth. The meaning of jihad being a collective obligation offensively is that we start fighting the enemy even if they do not start (fighting) us. If no Muslim performs the fighting offensively at any period then they will be sinful for leaving it. If the people of Egypt perform the offensive jihad then (its obligation) falls from the people of Indonesia, as there existed practically fighting by Muslims against belligerent disbelievers so the obligation of jihad has occurred. However if fighting (nashaba) between Muslims and disbelievers but the sufficiency (kifayah) has not occurred by the people of Egypt fighting the disbelievers alone, then its obligation does not fall from the people of India and Indonesia by the performance of the people of Egypt and Iraq. Rather it is obligatory upon the nearest (Muslim) then the nearest to the enemy until sufficiency occurs; if sufficiency does not occur except with all the Muslims, then jihad becomes obligatory upon all the Muslims until the enemy is conquered/subdued. The (muhil) of jihad being a collective obligation is if the Khaleefah has not told him to advance (jastanfiruhu); as for the one whom the Khaleefah has told him to advance, then jihad has become obligatory upon him due to the Supreme’s statement: “O you who believe, what is wrong with you that when it is said: ‘Go forth in the way of Allah’ you hold firm to the earth” [TMQ 9:] and his (SAW) statement: “And if you are asked to advance, then advance.” The meaning of the sufficiency of jihad in the Islamic State is that there rises for jihad a people whose fighting is sufficient; whether they are an army for whom there are books of accounts (dawawin) for this as was the case in the time of Umar, or they had prepared themselves for jihad freely as was the case in the time of Abu Bakr. It is the same whether these ones or these ones or both of them together such that if the enemy targets them (al-mana’ah) occurs by them so it is a collective obligation upon them. If (al-mana’ah) does not occur through them, then the Khaleefah prepares other for jihad and so on. Offensive jihad does not mean that we initiate fighting the enemy directly; rather we must first call them to Islam.

If is not allowed for Muslims to fight those whom the Islamic da’wah has not reached; rather, the disbelievers must first be called to Islam. If they reject, then the jizyah; and if they reject, we fight them. Muslim narrated from Sulayman bin Buraydah from his father: “When the Messenger of Allah (SAW) appointed an Amir over an army or expedition, he would exhort him to fear Allah in his soul and to be good to those Muslims with him. Then he would say: Fight in the name of Allah, in the way of Allah. Fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight but do not betray, commit treachery, mutilate nor kill a child. When you meet your enemy among the polytheists then call them to three (khisal) or (khilal) such that whichever of them they respond to, accept from them and do not fight them. Then call them to Isalm; if they are respond to you, accept from them and do not fight them. Then call them to move (tahawwal) from their land to the land of the emigrants (Muhajireen) and inform them that if they do this then for them is what is due to the Muhajireen and against them is what is due from the Muhajireen. If they refuse to move from it, then tell them that they are like the bedouin Muslims upon whom does not run what rule of Allah which runs over the believers and there is no booty or spoils for them unless they fight jihad with the Muslims. If they refuse, ask them the jizyah; if they respond to you, accept from them and do not fight them. If they refuse, seek help from Allah against them and fight them.” And from ibn Abbas: “The Messenger of Allah (SAW) never fought except that he invited them” (narrated by Ahmad). And from Furwat bin Maseek who said: “I said to Messenger of Allah, should I fight with those of my people advancing (against) those of them fleeing? He said: Yes. When I turned (to go), he called me and said: Do not fight them until you invite them to Islam.”



Edited by abujamal
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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2005 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by abujamal

"Neither political struggle nor rebuking (muqari’a) the rulers is termed jihad"


So if everything that is specifically related to 'fighting for Allah' or 'fighting for Islam' is termed jihad, speech and actions related to fighting, etc.,  then the notion that struggle or difficulties for the sake of Islam is jihad should be dispelled.  Jihad is fighting and war for Allah, correct?  Then the question becomes, can there be unjust jihad and what are the terms, the conditions of 'just jihad?'  So let's look at this quote you gave Abujamal:
Originally posted by abujamal

Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the deen of truth among the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah from their hands while they are humiliated” [TMQ 9:29].


At the very least this would forbid the so called 'jihadists' from fighting other Muslim believers and other monotheists, other People of the Book.  Now, we're into this, because the US and Israel and Europe, still, are full of People of the Book and monotheists.  The jihadists that are using the notion of jihad to advocate killing and 'purifying' Islam are just flat wrong and heretical toward Muslim theology and teaching.  True Muslim teachers need to rise up against such heresy.

Osama Bin Laden and Al Zarqawi are heretics and should be opposed by all Muslims for their heresy - as well as their murderous duplicity and co-opting the Muslim faith for political and 'worldly' considerations.

If Islam is to be truly, other worldly and focus people on faith in Allah, then why are these so-called jihadists focused on worldly events and politics?  Is not Allah above this fray?  It is so perverted for OBL and Z to be doing this - to be preverting Allah for their own worldly selfish means...

Muslims arise and awake to this sickening heresy and fight for your faith - for the faith of your fathers!

As I say this, I admonish myself to do the same - to fight for the faith of my fathers and against the perversion of it by the US materlialistic idolatry..that is not to say that all material is bad - I am not advocating nihilism - but I am saying that it is true poverty to worship things or wealth and power...I will fight against that til I die...and if anyone cares what I mean by fighting against materialism I will fill you in...


Edited by b95000
Bruce
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Quote jibreel Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2005 at 7:13am
Bruce

    Jihad was a commandment from ALLAH to Abraham and also to Moses
(pbuh) for the children of Israel aka Jacob (no jews existed yet) but
before there was judaism., Exodus 20:13Thou shalt not kill (unless to
remove oppressors)

   this commandment was abused by corrupted by biblical scribes who
wanted to judge others by there own standards and not by the Universal
God., which results to racist discrimination as we wtinessed with Jesus
(pbuh) who was accused of things just because he was a samaritan.

John 8 [48] Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well
that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

And the children of Abraham (pbuh) as jesus (pbuh) refered as abraham
his father as well and others whom he called his family where also of the
same faith.

So while your defending the fight for satan, pride in things like a country,
money, oil.. or qnything that benefits you there are those who believe and
fight in the name of allah.

So you better get your story straight if you have a problem with that one.

The fact is that only a liar would call the believers fanatics, because a liar
wants to believe he is not the fanatic for going to bed with a teddy bear
to avoid the nightmares for the actions against there own soul.

Edited by jibreel
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