Originally posted by b95000



I am a Christian.  This is a glib reference.  You care to elaborate on this? Just a basic review - for instance are you calling the monarchies in Europe "Christian" - Constantinople one, but like the Kings of France and England, et al?  Are you calling those guys Christians?  Shall we call Hussein a true Muslim - the rapist, mass murderer - along with his sons?

Originally posted by AK47

Like ZamanH points out, the sheer amount of atrocities committed by the United States and its proxy nations greatly outweigh the crimes committed by other nations. For instance, the vast majority of nations that have oppressed their people in the 20th century were U.S. allies and dependents...

B: As I mentioned to ZamanH, please prove this, otherwise it is subjective hyperbole..

When Indonesia was committing atrocities against the East Timorese under Suharto, it was being supplied with the weapons to commit said atrocities by the United States under the guise of fighting "communist" insurgency in East Timor. It was only after Indonesia had outlived its usefullness to the United States that America was miraculously concerned with the welfare of East Timor. How can you even defend the United States at all?

B: If you want to get into the details of arms shipments here and there, you are going to have to broaden your criticism well beyond the US and into entire industrialized world including Russia, China and Europe to name 3 other huge players in arms dealings...has the US or US companies been wrong and done things that are wrong...sure but please be comprehensive in your criticism.  Furthermore, the way that certain groups receive arms is often extremely convoluted and doesn't lend itself easily to bi-polar moralisms of "US EVIL."

As Muslims, we do not target the United States and Israel alone for our criticism, first and foremost we target our own corrupt and immoral regimes. Why can't Americans do the same?

B: Americans do criticize our government - 24 x 7 at times...that's what we're all about in this huge, long running democratic experiment.  Can you point to the same level of dissent and results in any Arab country?  Do the leaders listen to the people?  Must they listen?  Americans often don't hear much about this internal criticism that you're talking about re: Muslim dominated governments.  Conversely we hear of your vocal criticisms of the US and Israel all the time.  Do you blame that on media coverage or on the relative dearth of the former?

Also, I was not throwing mud on the United States generally, I was stating historical fact. No nation in history has been so hypocritical, war-mongering, lying and two-faced as the United States. America's crimes began against the Native peoples of the United States already in 1776 and just expanded from there. I challenge you to disprove these historical facts on America's aggressive and imperialist behavior since its inception. Read Ward Churchill's book and disprove any of his points, all of which are historical facts (except for his points on Bosnia and Kosovo, which are completely false and I don't know where he got his information, in fact, the claims he makes regarding those two nations are CONTRARY to historical fact.)

B: Historical fact?  You haven't convinced me.  The reference you quote seems to be true as long as you agree with it and not true when you disagree...is that how we're to determine historical facts?  So before I go about disproving, or giving a different take on US history, why don't you come up with some specific beefs.