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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2005 at 8:06pm
I find your opinion important Sasha - when I filter out the harshness, invective and generalizations.   Of course I'm no perfect person and will never claim anything close to perfect knowledge.

I know the US image is poor in some quarters.  But the US is willing to act and many nations and peoples are not right now.  I have harsh words for such do nothing peoples and nations because it is their apathy that creates a vacuum into which the US must step.  Just not acting against killers is no option, in my humble opinion.  

This is why I've been asking lately what Spain and France and Germany and Russia are doing for world peace? What are they doing on a daily basis?  Criticizing the US is no answer to that question!

We must start by discussing facts and realities...perhaps, this is not what you think I've been doing, but that is truly my desire.  I respect and honor other peoples and nations and yet you also believe that my support for Bush, for instance rules out that reality.  But I'm not Bush head, I will not give Bush nor any politician carte blanche and I think that while any US President has a good deal of power, they (and Bush) have much less power than many think they've got - that is true for the loyal opposition in the US as well - who often blame the president inordinately for failures and his supporters credit him inordinately for successes.   But this is human nature - to have someone to rally behind or to villify..


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Whisper
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2005 at 4:13am

But I'm not Bush head, I will not give Bush nor any politician carte blanche and I think that

 

Bruce, even if you were I would have taken it as your absolute Right of self determination. Bush would have remained a sole US citizens’ concern if he had not been caught in the acts of creating such a global scale mess.

 

His actions now concern everyone in the world because these are multiplying terrorism. The other day I watched an Indian sketch on the TV:

 

OBL and GWB meet at a secret location, both with beards, in similar garbs. After deep embraces, ahlan w’sehlan and all that, OBL hands him the highest award for promoting his cause!!

 

None of us can ever be perfect.

I have become so accustomed to my imperfections that I have now started to log them. We are now faced with perhaps the most interesting times of our lives. We need to become able to end this spiral of violence.

 

We won’t be able to do that unless and until we generate a situation in which we could discuss everything in a clear, open, honest manner – without any national or regional considerations and whatever.

 

But the US is willing to act and many nations and peoples are not right now. 

 

I know where you are coming from, but action without wisdom always ends up in a far worse situation. Let’s face it action has created Iraq and, the whole region is sitting up to explode.

 

If we could solve matters by just killing the killers, all killings would have ended by now.

 

This problem is very deep rooted. It’s not just someone's desire to kill or anything like that. It stems from decades of active and passive oppression. It won’t go away unless and until we study its actual causes and do something to address those causes.

 

We can’t just shoot it away.


We must start by discussing facts and realities...perhaps, this is not what you think I've been doing, but that is truly my desire.

 

My mission is exactly the same. I am becoming more active just because I have had the advantage of knowing both the sides of this great divide. The reality for a man in Paghman or Basra is not the same as it may be, say, for a New Yorker or for someone in Bradford.

 

We have as yet not been able to find a Universal Template.

I well know what my Muslim friends would say. Our Community will flash at least 19 ayaats form the Qur’an and tell us that there is no other way than the one he is penning down.

 

Perhaps even I may have reached that conclusion, but if we won’t allow the US to force a system on the world why would we allow our Muslim friends to force their favourite system on the same world?

 

We have to chart the middle path.

And, I promise, far sooner than we may think.

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2005 at 11:06pm
Thanks for this post Sasha - many excellent thoughts - I must say this is the most reasonable interchange we may have had yet.  Now if you'd just avoid calling me "theatre trash" - we'd get along much better! 

"Let’s face it action has created Iraq and, the whole region is sitting up to explode."

Not if people are willing to maintain their lives and sacrifice for principles of freedom and accountability and the rule of law (the writing of the Constitution is the chief current example of this.) 

This is a completely and utterly important cause - that of a Free Iraq and harbinger of a more free Middle East...Let Freedom in tandem with accountability have its results across the lands there and across the world...the purity and goodness of Islam that OBL claims to care about will be allowed to express itself within the context of true freedom with responsibility.

Do you really think these things horrid and just want to focus on the 'powder keg' news?  (May God bring peace and comfort and better days ahead to those that have lost family members and friends to extremists and worshipers of death..)



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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2005 at 3:57am

Do you really think these things horrid and just want to focus on the 'powder keg' news? 

I don't think these things to be horrid at all. But you have to bear in mind that the world outside the US holds much less, if at all any, reason to believe your admin. I will consider Iraq free on the day it's free of foreign troops on its soil.

We will consider Afghanistan again our home the day the ferengi depart from there. Right now (whatever reports you get or don't get) the situation on the ground has become very volatile.

I am not discussing how it should be in ideal conditions or under one law  or the other. Unless activists like you begin to understand and take peoples' perceptions into account, US will be left wondering why the rest world can't see what we see. Any miles of arguments in your own favour won't make an iota of a difference.

Just a simple advice from a man who faces angry public each day of his life.

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2005 at 4:28am

I will explain  "theatre trash" in absolute sincerity. At times, we win just by accepting the other peoples' points of view. When we try to hardsell our admins already worn out spin I promise you it is seen as nothing more than theatre trash. Ask anyone on this board.

Bruce, force does not always win. You force your point too much and almost to the take it or else point. At times, it sounds as if only the US point of view can be correct and the rest of the world can take it or lump it.

Just for an instance take how the Gulf War I, Sell Man and the BCCI effected the Muslim world.

This is a forum where we just exchange ideas. It's not a court where we sit and decide what's true and what's not true. My simple point was how people in the Islamic world came to look at the West since these incidences.

You ran into the whole length on how Rush Die has admirers and how wrong it was to issue that fatwa and offer $3,000,000 on his head.

This leaves the impression that you are either running away from the point in hand or trying to batter us with your view. This does not add any points to your basket. You just lose credibility by being off balance.

Just tell me. Is there any harm in accepting that the Muslim perception was affected by these events? Do you really lose any points doing that? You say you wish to learn. How can you learn without really listening to how and why the Muslims feel, think or act the way they do?

Just by hardselling your point and coverting the lot to your point of view? I have asked you often how you plan to sell something to us or educate the lot with your curricullum if your President fails to do that with all the resources at his command.

I promise, it does help to think at times.

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2005 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by Whisper

I will explain  "theatre trash" in absolute sincerity. At times, we win just by accepting the other peoples' points of view. When we try to hardsell our admins already worn out spin I promise you it is seen as nothing more than theatre trash. Ask anyone on this board.

Bruce, force does not always win. You force your point too much and almost to the take it or else point. At times, it sounds as if only the US point of view can be correct and the rest of the world can take it or lump it.

B: I don't believe that.  I just want us all to be accountable to reality and to support our views with facts and logic.  That is all.  I am not a Bush lacky and I don't like anti-Bush, anti-American  lackies...let's think for ourselves, why don't we?

Just for an instance take how the Gulf War I, Sell Man and the BCCI effected the Muslim world.

This is a forum where we just exchange ideas. It's not a court where we sit and decide what's true and what's not true.

B: If we're not willing to try to come to some agreement on what is true or factual and not, where does that leave our discussion - in some sort of ether..meaningless and jousting at windmills [Cervantes, Don Quixote.]

My simple point was how people in the Islamic world came to look at the West since these incidences.

But you don't want to deal with the fact that some of the incidents you cited very likely didn't happen.  And you seem to think there was unanimity of condemnation regarding GWI?

You just lose credibility by being off balance.

B: Seeking after the truth is not off balance - I disagree heartily.

Just tell me. Is there any harm in accepting that the Muslim perception was affected by these events? Do you really lose any points doing that? You say you wish to learn.

B: Of course it was.  But what were the facts and what if the facts had been totally known as well?  Don't we all have a great interest in that?

How can you learn without really listening to how and why the Muslims feel, think or act the way they do?

B: I want to know that.  I also want Muslims to dialogue with me about the truth and facts - as we both see and perceive them and hopefully we'll find areas of agreement.

Just by hardselling your point and coverting the lot to your point of view?

B: Frankly I don't think being persisting in seeking truth to be 'hardselling'.

I promise, it does help to think at times.

B: Yeah, we should both try it more, hey? 
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2005 at 8:48pm

Thanks. Actually you are not seeking truth, but trying to spread some brand of your own Truth - the one you have in hand.

Your entire admin is trying to do exactly the same and failing miserably at that. I wonder how far you would go bashing about, shooting left right and centre. Yet, Good Luck. 

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 26 August 2005 at 12:52am
Originally posted by Whisper

Thanks. Actually you are not seeking truth,

B: You cannot claim to know what is going on in my heart...sorry...you're not God..(despite what you may think...)

but trying to spread some brand of your own Truth - the one you have in hand.

B: All of us do this to one degree or another..

Your entire admin is trying to do exactly the same and failing miserably at that. I wonder how far you would go bashing about, shooting left right and centre. Yet, Good Luck.

B: OK.  I've asked you to talk about your involvement in the communist parties and that of your father and grandfather...please do so...it would help us to understand where you're coming from...Thanks in advance..

Bruce
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