IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The contradictions of the Bible

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Nazarene
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Posted: 26 July 2009 at 6:26pm

Originally posted by martha

Salaams brother,

Lol, excuse my mistake...I thought I was replying to Nastassia

Originally posted by Nazarene

salaams
as for you last comment if the fall was nessasary for man then Eve should be hailed as a hero for Her Selfless deed and to be subject to man for ever and ever.

leland

Yes, you could say that I guess. My only question for Christians really would be what is the point of Adam and Eve and the expulsion from the garden of Eden. Why were they important ? Christians post the contradictions to Islam, but unless I've missed something they haven't given a reason as of yet for why Adam(Eve) were in the garden of Eden in the first..what for? Like I say, maybe I missed something or was asleep

salaams

I agree sis. the whole "original sin" thing has no baring on me personaly . my post was strickly for the enlightenment of our christian friends.

Good question my beloved sister. What's the point?

leland

love for all conquers all

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Natassia

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Posted: 26 July 2009 at 10:54pm

Originally posted by martha

Nastasia,

*(see below)

The bible reference is Genesis 2:5-18 which does say that Adam was alone in the Garden of Eden when he was instructed not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I am not sure what your point is exactly.

If the contradiction you believe is coming from woman disobeying her husband, and is against church teachings, what you need to remember is there was no 'church' until after Adam and Eve were removed from the garden. Before they ate of the apple they were pure (Gen 3: 22-24)and so could talk to God freely. In effect they became 'mortal humans' after the fall from grace. After they left Eden Adam offered up prayer as a way to communicate with God. He was the first prophet so established the first church, so to speak.

1 Timothy 2:14 Eve was deceived and she in turn then deceived Adam.

The fall was a necessary step for mankind. Without it we would not be here.

(*my understanding when I was Christian.)

Eve DID NOT deceive Adam. The tempter deceived Eve. She sinned and gave some of the fruit to her husband who was with her. He ate of it. Their eyes were then opened. In the beginning of chapter 3, Eve confirms the rule God had put forth. This shows that either God reaffirmed the law when Eve was formed or Adam taught her the law (which is more likely). So, we can assume that it was Adam's responsibility as head of the family to teach the moral law: do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and of evil.

Eve knew the law but was deceived into breaking it.

Adam knew the law and simply broke it because he wanted to and held no respect for it.

When they explained the reasons for their transgression, do you know what happened? Eve admitted to being deceived by the Serpent. Adam said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

He put the blame on God and on Eve when he simply took the fruit when his wife gave it to him. Now do you understand why God was described as being almost "fanatical" throughout the Tanakh in regards to the Israelites marrying women of pagan nations?

It is not through any fault of women that they are not to teach. It is the fault of men--their weaknesses--that women are not to be in religious authority over them (according to the pastoral epistles anyway). Men are so easily led astray...if a woman is being deceived by satan and she is a preacher of a congregation...how easily will it be for men to follow?

Adam and Eve became KNOWING human beings: judging good and evil (although probably not always correctly). I think their bodies were always mortal--it is the soul that also became mortal thanks to sin because the wages of sin is death.

God never said that man would be mortal because he sinned. He said he would work the ground until he died and was buried in it. It doesn't say that he wasn't going to die before the fall. And God never specifically said anything about death to Eve. Does that mean women were supposed to live forever?

Adam and Eve committed the FIRST sin...the "original" one. Humans have followed in their footsteps ever since.

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martha

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Posted: 27 July 2009 at 6:13am

Nastassia,

Not all Christians believe the way you do.

I for one have a hard time understanding sometimes, tho I always try to.

I am pasting a link which explains a few things as I knew and accepted them to be at the time I was a Christian.

So as not to bore you with too much, it is in simplifed form (written for children) but it includes the scriptures we are talking about right now.

Of course I don't expect you to accept these views. But sometimes things are not always black and white in life. It isn't just about one muslim and one christian having a battle here.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=eac2ff3ff4c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e36d5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set

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Hayfa
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Posted: 27 July 2009 at 8:24am

And for Muslims, in The Quran, Adam and Eve did not blame anyone but themselves! This is a big point.. acceptance and repentance. Whereas as Iblis, when he would not bow to Adam, blamed God and Adam... he could not be humble. He had pride.

This is different then in the Christan concept of Adam 'blaming' someone else.

AND that Iblis deceived them. He whispered and whispered... and swore upon God. So yes Adam and Eve committed a wrong but Allah is most merciful to those who repent..

How beautiful is that..

take individual responsibility. Don't blame another for your own mistakes.

I was listening to the lecture series on Rights and Responsibilities of Marriage...

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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martha

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Posted: 27 July 2009 at 9:26am

You know...part of this discussion is why didnt Adam take responsibilityfor his wife. Actually he did. When he realised that Eve would be cast out of Eden for eating the fruit he ate the fruit too knowing he would also be cast out. Sounds like a very decent male image really.

It kind of comes down to any typical marriage doesn't it. A spouse might make a mistake and the other party forgives and they progress onwards.

some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set

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Hayfa
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Posted: 27 July 2009 at 2:24pm

Salaams Martha,

What version are you coming from with Adam? Which bible?

iwas respnding to Natassia..

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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martha

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Posted: 27 July 2009 at 3:28pm

Salaams Hayfa,

Standard bible (KJ's version) and Book of Mormon (book of Moses). Might as well include those scriptures and make it more interesting.

Whilst most Christians don't recognise the Book of Mormon it gives an historical/religious account of peoples living on the American continent.

As most of the time we talk about the bible and the area and people around israel and then the qu'ran and its people in the Arabian peninsula I thought it would be quite interesting to include the Mormon's view too.

As it is a free for all please don't mind me responding, lol.

some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set

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JOUBERAR

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Posted: 29 July 2009 at 4:38am

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by believer

A contradiction is saying that something did not happen, not that it happened at a different time.

Why would there be 4 Gospels in the Holy Bible that are all slightly different?

I mean really wouldn't you burn the ones that did not match up exactly- even if it was GOD's word?

Could the people claiming these Gospels as GOD's Word not see that there were sight differences?

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4222459/k.BA40/Why_do_the_Gospel_accounts_contradict_each_other.htm

Perhaps you can explain why Matthew and Luke differ on when exactly Jesus was born? Matthew has Jesus being born during the reign of Herod the Great, whereas Luke has Jesus being born during the reign of Herod Archelaus, almost 10 years later! Was Jesus born twice?

Don't rush. I will give you some time to find a suitable source to copy and paste! Wink

What is the big fuss about your Jesus was born 500 years later.

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Topic: The contradictions of the Bible
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Author	Message
Nazarene Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 05 September 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 302	Posted: 26 July 2009 at 6:26pm
	*Originally posted by martha* Salaams brother, Lol, excuse my mistake...I thought I was replying to Nastassia *Originally posted by Nazarene* salaams as for you last comment if the fall was nessasary for man then Eve should be hailed as a hero for Her Selfless deed and to be subject to man for ever and ever. leland Yes, you could say that I guess. My only question for Christians really would be what is the point of Adam and Eve and the expulsion from the garden of Eden. Why were they important ? Christians post the contradictions to Islam, but unless I've missed something they haven't given a reason as of yet for why Adam(Eve) were in the garden of Eden in the first..what for? Like I say, maybe I missed something or was asleep salaams I agree sis. the whole "original sin" thing has no baring on me personaly . my post was strickly for the enlightenment of our christian friends. Good question my beloved sister. What's the point? leland
	love for all conquers all
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Natassia Senior Member Joined: 16 July 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 177	Posted: 26 July 2009 at 10:54pm
	*Originally posted by martha* Nastasia, (see below) The bible reference is Genesis 2:5-18 which does say that Adam was alone in the Garden of Eden when he was instructed not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I am not sure what your point is exactly. If the contradiction you believe is coming from woman disobeying her husband, and is against church teachings, what you need to remember is there was no 'church' until after Adam and Eve were removed from the garden. Before they ate of the apple they were pure (Gen 3: 22-24)and so could talk to God freely. In effect they became 'mortal humans' after the fall from grace. After they left Eden Adam offered up prayer as a way to communicate with God. He was the first prophet so established the first church, so to speak. 1 Timothy 2:14 Eve was deceived and she in turn then deceived Adam. The fall was a necessary step for mankind. Without it we would not be here. (my understanding when I was Christian.) Eve DID NOT deceive Adam. The tempter deceived Eve. She sinned and gave some of the fruit to her husband who was with her. He ate of it. Their eyes were then opened. In the beginning of chapter 3, Eve confirms the rule God had put forth. This shows that either God reaffirmed the law when Eve was formed or Adam taught her the law (which is more likely). So, we can assume that it was Adam's responsibility as head of the family to teach the moral law: do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and of evil. Eve knew the law but was deceived into breaking it. Adam knew the law and simply broke it because he wanted to and held no respect for it. When they explained the reasons for their transgression, do you know what happened? Eve admitted to being deceived by the Serpent. Adam said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." He put the blame on God and on Eve when he simply took the fruit when his wife gave it to him. Now do you understand why God was described as being almost "fanatical" throughout the Tanakh in regards to the Israelites marrying women of pagan nations? It is not through any fault of women that they are not to teach. It is the fault of men--their weaknesses--that women are not to be in religious authority over them (according to the pastoral epistles anyway). Men are so easily led astray...if a woman is being deceived by satan and she is a preacher of a congregation...how easily will it be for men to follow? Adam and Eve became KNOWING human beings: judging good and evil (although probably not always correctly). I think their bodies were always mortal--it is the soul that also became mortal thanks to sin because the wages of sin is death. God never said that man would be mortal because he sinned. He said he would work the ground until he died and was buried in it. It doesn't say that he wasn't going to die before the fall. And God never specifically said anything about death to Eve. Does that mean women were supposed to live forever? Adam and Eve committed the FIRST sin...the "original" one. Humans have followed in their footsteps ever since.
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martha Senior Member Joined: 30 October 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1141	Posted: 27 July 2009 at 6:13am
	Nastassia, Not all Christians believe the way you do. I for one have a hard time understanding sometimes, tho I always try to. I am pasting a link which explains a few things as I knew and accepted them to be at the time I was a Christian. So as not to bore you with too much, it is in simplifed form (written for children) but it includes the scriptures we are talking about right now. Of course I don't expect you to accept these views. But sometimes things are not always black and white in life. It isn't just about one muslim and one christian having a battle here. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=eac2ff3ff4c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e36d5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
	some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
	IP Logged

Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 27 July 2009 at 8:24am
	And for Muslims, in The Quran, Adam and Eve did not blame anyone but themselves! This is a big point.. acceptance and repentance. Whereas as Iblis, when he would not bow to Adam, blamed God and Adam... he could not be humble. He had pride. This is different then in the Christan concept of Adam 'blaming' someone else. AND that Iblis deceived them. He whispered and whispered... and swore upon God. So yes Adam and Eve committed a wrong but Allah is most merciful to those who repent.. How beautiful is that.. take individual responsibility. Don't blame another for your own mistakes. I was listening to the lecture series on Rights and Responsibilities of Marriage...
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
	IP Logged

martha Senior Member Joined: 30 October 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1141	Posted: 27 July 2009 at 9:26am
	You know...part of this discussion is why didnt Adam take responsibilityfor his wife. Actually he did. When he realised that Eve would be cast out of Eden for eating the fruit he ate the fruit too knowing he would also be cast out. Sounds like a very decent male image really. It kind of comes down to any typical marriage doesn't it. A spouse might make a mistake and the other party forgives and they progress onwards.
	some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
	IP Logged

Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 27 July 2009 at 2:24pm
	Salaams Martha, What version are you coming from with Adam? Which bible? iwas respnding to Natassia..
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
	IP Logged

martha Senior Member Joined: 30 October 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1141	Posted: 27 July 2009 at 3:28pm
	Salaams Hayfa, Standard bible (KJ's version) and Book of Mormon (book of Moses). Might as well include those scriptures and make it more interesting. Whilst most Christians don't recognise the Book of Mormon it gives an historical/religious account of peoples living on the American continent. As most of the time we talk about the bible and the area and people around israel and then the qu'ran and its people in the Arabian peninsula I thought it would be quite interesting to include the Mormon's view too. As it is a free for all please don't mind me responding, lol.
	some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
	IP Logged

JOUBERAR Guest Group Joined: 13 March 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 573	Posted: 29 July 2009 at 4:38am
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* *Originally posted by believer* A contradiction is saying that something did not happen, not that it happened at a different time. Why would there be 4 Gospels in the Holy Bible that are all slightly different? I mean really wouldn't you burn the ones that did not match up exactly- even if it was GOD's word? Could the people claiming these Gospels as GOD's Word not see that there were sight differences? http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4222459/k.BA40/Why_do_the_Gospel_accounts_contradict_each_other.htm Perhaps you can explain why Matthew and Luke differ on when exactly Jesus was born? Matthew has Jesus being born during the reign of Herod the Great, whereas Luke has Jesus being born during the reign of Herod Archelaus, almost 10 years later! Was Jesus born twice? Don't rush. I will give you some time to find a suitable source to copy and paste! What is the big fuss about your Jesus was born 500 years later.
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