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Whisper
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:04am

I feel poor Mockba was actually pointing to this and seems to have riffled some Anglo-American feathers!

If we are so keen to fight Terrorism why do we shirk from a sensible diagnosis of this ailment?

Tube bombs 'linked to Iraq conflict'

· Thinktank says war boosts al-Qaida
· Blair dismisses connection


David Hencke, Westminster correspondent
Monday July 18, 2005
The Guardian

Britain's involvement in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan contributed to the terrorist attacks in London, a respected independent thinktank on foreign affairs, the Chatham House organisation, says today.

According to the body, which includes leading academics and former civil servants among its members, the key problem in the UK for preventing terrorism is that the country is "riding as a pillion passenger with the United States in the war against terror".

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It says Britain's ability to carry out counter-terrorism measures has also been hampered because the US is always in the driving seat in deciding policy.

The report says the security services, diverted by fighting the IRA over Northern Ireland and the rise of animal activists committing terrorist acts, failed to give priority in the early 1990s to monitoring Islamist terror activists setting up in Britain, so "the British authorities did not fully appreciate the threat from al-Qaida".

In the most politically sensitive finding, Chatham House, which used to be known as the Royal Institute of International Affairs, concludes there is "no doubt" the invasion of Iraq has "given a boost to the al-Qaida network" in "propaganda, recruitment and fundraising", while providing an ideal targeting and training area for terrorists. "Riding pillion with a powerful ally has proved costly in terms of British and US military lives, Iraqi lives, military expenditure and the damage caused to the counter-terrorism campaign."

This finding runs counter to the line from Downing Street, which has sought to detach Iraq from the London attacks.

On Saturday, Tony Blair said the fanatics who struck in London and launched other attacks around the world were driven by an "evil ideology" rather than opposition to any policy, and that it would be a "misunderstanding of a catastrophic order" to think that if we changed our behaviour they would change theirs.

Amid the growing debate over proposed terror laws in Britain, the Tories will today offer Charles Clarke, the home secretary, the chance to speed up new laws, provided that the government delays until next year proposals to revise the control orders system for detaining suspect terrorists.

David Davis, the shadow home secretary, will ask the government to bring forward full details of one of the most divisive parts of the legislation - the indirect incitement to terrorism offence - by a month to September, so MPs and human rights groups such as Liberty can study them properly before the bill is published in October.

Mr Davis will make his offer during talks today with Mr Clarke, which will also be attended by Mark Oaten, the Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman. Lord Falconer, the lord chancellor, indicated yes terday that the government might be prepared to speed up anti-terror measures if it could reach agreement with the opposition parties. He told BBC Radio 4's Westminster Hour: "We should not rush into things because these things need careful thought. But if the opposition parties and the police can reach a consensus with us, then we can do it very quickly."

Azzam Tamimi of the Muslim Association of Britain told a rally in Russell Square, near the scene of the bus bombing, that the Muslim community would not suffer in silence for the crimes of the suicide bombers. "We will continue to talk, we will continue to write and we will continue to challenge the government. I say to Muslims, do not bow to pressure to keep accepting those pointing fingers at you.

"Say, 'No, I'm not responsible for what happened on July 7. My heart bleeds, I condemn it, yes, but I did not make those boys angry. I did not send those bombs to Iraq. I do not keep people locked in Guantánamo Bay and I do not have anything to do with Abu Ghraib, except to denounce it.' Politicians, see what you have done to this world?"

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by Whisper

If we are so keen to fight Terrorism why do we shirk from a sensible diagnosis of this ailment?

Tube bombs 'linked to Iraq conflict'

· Thinktank says war boosts al-Qaida
· Blair dismisses connection


David Hencke, Westminster correspondent
Monday July 18, 2005
The Guardian



Since we're so very eager in not shirking back from the causation of Islamic-motivated terrorism - then we must ask - what caused the mass murders of 3,000 innocent civilians of Sept. 11, 2001, including over 100 Muslims - was it the Iraq War of 2003?

I don't think there was a connection.

So what caused that mass murder?

What came first?  The mass murder or the defense against the mass murder?
Bruce
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2005 at 2:27am

I suggest you go and Ask Lewis Lapham or any number of other sensible American thinkers, writers and a wee more than 78% of your country's academics. Instead of forcing a known Neo-Con lines down our throats.

Now don't distort it into your typical bull of "Sasha condones 9/11 or any other killings" or something to that effect. For, I do not condone any killings at all. Unlike you I have seen enough killing to go off it at least for my lifetime. Many times over those 2,881 killed in those towers.

Read some serious American publications. Just try and find out. Is it ever possible that the US deeds (or, just their occupation of Saudi Arabia) may have made some enemies somewhere in the world?

Try and think. I know it can be a bit difficult for Americans, but I promise anyone can think just if we try a little harder.



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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2005 at 2:34am

I know how you feel at your global plight in such an hour. I also understand your desire to paste everything on someone, something else, somehow.

I have my sympathies with Americans and also with their burning desire to see just the brighter things about their country and themselves. I do understand the reasons for this, but that would be for some other topic, sometimes.

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2005 at 2:39am

Just for the Forum in general, not particularly for anyone special attempting hard to burry ones head in the sand.

Ministers warned of Iraq link to UK terror
Richard Norton-Taylor, Vikram Dodd, and Hugh Muir
Wednesday July 20, 2005
The Guardian

Fresh evidence emerged yesterday that the government was privately warned by the intelligence agencies that the conflict in Iraq could provoke terrorist acts in Britain and compound anger among young British Muslims.

 

A month before the July 7 London bombings, security and intelligence officials warned that "events in Iraq are continuing to act as motivation and a focus of a range of terrorist-related activity in the UK".

 

The warning was issued by the Joint Terrorist Analysis Centre (Jtac), British officials confirmed yesterday. Sections of the report were published by the New York Times newspaper. A link between the government's foreign policy and disillusion among young Muslims - strenuously denied by ministers - was also made in a paper prepared for Tony Blair on the orders of the home and foreign secretaries last year.

 

The paper, Young Muslims and Extremism, which included input from the security services, said British foreign policy "seems a particularly strong cause of disillusionment amongst Muslims, including young Muslims".

 

It referred to "a perceived 'double standard' in the foreign policy of western governments ... in particular Britain and the US".

 

The paper describes "perceived western bias in Israel's favour" as a long-running grievance. It adds: "This perception seems to have become more acute post 9/11. The perception is that passive 'oppression', as demonstrated by British foreign policy, eg non-action on Kashmir and Chechnya, has given way to 'active oppression'." The war on terror, Iraq and Afghanistan were all seen by a section of British Muslims as being acts against Islam.

 

"This disillusionment may contribute to a sense of helplessness with regard to the situation of Muslims in the world, with a lack of any tangible 'pressure valves', in order to vent frustrations, anger or dissent," said the paper.

 

Despite this warning last month, Jtac lowered its terrorist threat level on the grounds that there was thought to be no single "group with both the current intent and the capability to attack the UK".

 

But it added: "Whilst the threat from al-Qaida leadership-directed plots have not gone away, many of our current concerns focus on a wide range and large number of extremist networks and individuals in the UK and individuals and groups that are inspired by, but only loosely affiliated to, al-Qaida or are entirely autonomous.'

 

"Some of these have the potential to plan UK attacks and it is also possible that lone extremists or small groups could attempt lower-level attacks."

 

The mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, yesterday suggested the four suicide bombers were prompted - at least in part - by long-standing grievances.

 

During his weekly press briefing at City Hall, Mr Livingstone said he could not read the bombers' minds but added: "I think there were several levels that led those young men to come to London to kill. One is 85 years of western intervention in the affairs of the Middle East."

 

He said the west had repeatedly meddled "because we wished to preserve oil supplies", adding: "I think for the last nearly 60 years we have this terrible running sore of the dispossession of the Palestinians which is the single most important wound in the Islamic psyche."

 

The mayor also rounded on media critics of the Muslim cleric Yusef al-Qaradawi, amid reports that the controversial theologian is coming to Britain for a conference early next month. Newspapers accuse the cleric of supporting suicide bombing and have called for him to be banned.

 

Egypt said yesterday that Magdi el-Nashar, a detained chemist wanted by Britain for questioning over the London bombings, had no links to the attacks nor to al-Qaida.

 

A group called Abu Hafs al Masri Brigades, an al-Qaida-linked group, threatened yesterday to launch "a bloody war" on the capitals of European countries that do not remove their troops from Iraq within a month.

 

The group has no proven record of attacks, and experts have doubted its claims in the past.

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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2005 at 4:50am
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2005 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by Whisper

I suggest you go and Ask Lewis Lapham or any number of other sensible American thinkers, writers and a wee more than 78% of your country's academics. Instead of forcing a known Neo-Con lines down our throats.

B: How could the tube bombings be tied to any one action (like the Iraq liberation) when Islamic motivated extremism predates this action by 2 decades at least..no, there must be something more than that as a causation (Of course, linking the Iraq liberation as a cause of the tube murders is what some people are wishing for in order to bring infamy upon the liberation.)  That has little to do with 'neo-con' lines and much to do with verifiable chronology and facts.  But who cares about those among 'friends' - eh Whisper?

Now don't distort it into your typical bull

B: What's that?  "Typical bull" - you alone stand in your ridiculing of me - someone who has a different viewpoint than your own.  Is that how you deal with people Sasha - by ridiculing others you don't agree with?

Now don't distort it into your typical bull of "Sasha condones 9/11 or any other killings" or something to that effect. For, I do not condone any killings at all.

B: Let me ask you this Sasha - how did you oppose the Taliban?  Saddam?  Muslims extremism?  - seeing as you do not condone any killings at all.

Unlike you I have seen enough killing to go off it at least for my lifetime. Many times over those 2,881 killed in those towers....Try and think. I know it can be a bit difficult for Americans, but I promise anyone can think just if we try a little harder.

B: Interesting how you make presumptions about me - without knowing anything about me..why do you do that?  Is it because you may believe that one 'stupid' American is just like all other 'stupid' Americans?  How racist is that?  Sasha Khanzadeh is a racist, proven by the ethnic perjoratives he blithely slings at all Americans..

Read some serious American publications. Just try and find out.

B: More presumptious rubbish..why don't you quit making presumptions and take up the debate, man?  I've asked you clearly to define 'occupation' but you have not done it.

Is it ever possible that the US deeds (or, just their occupation of Saudi Arabia) may have made some enemies somewhere in the world?

B: OK, now we're getting somewhere (by default?)  Sasha believes that the troops presence invited by the Saud rulers is somehow an 'occupation.'  Is that your definition - troop presence?  If that were the case then Egypt occupied Iraq and Kuwait in 1991 and AQ, OBL, the Taliban, and Sasha should be railing against them as Secular Infidel Occupiers of the Muslim Holy Lands.

But go ahead Sasha, define 'occupation.'  While you're at it please define 'freedom' and tell us how it applies to women...Thanks..



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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2005 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Whisper

I have my sympathies with Americans and also with their burning desire to see just the brighter things about their country and themselves. I do understand the reasons for this, but that would be for some other topic, sometimes.



From all you've written so far about how Americans are 'stupid' and can't think and how hard it is for them to think, your sympathies lie more in racism than 'with Americans' oh Sasha, the Whisper.  Any confidence placed in any of your other reasoning should, as a result, be extremely little.  Before you should have any expectation of others being willing to discuss other matters with you Sasha, you need to deal with your racism toward Americans [I've outlined the details of such].  Whatever you think of me or other specific Americans, we are not a monolithic blob of 300 million souls that you can simply deride and castigate with perjoratives at will, anymore than Afghanis or Muslims are..
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