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JOUBERAR
 
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Quote JOUBERAR Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2009 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

If the Muslim world were to control the main stream media, I bet the Muslim population would be increasing in leaps and bounds.
 
As it is the information in the internet in regards to the Miracles of Allah Our Creator, is spreading like wild fire catching not only laymen, but intellectuals who made use of their intellect. For example the splitting of the moon which scientist had recently found out and was stated clearly in Surah Al-Qamar.
 
And Ron if the Muslim scientists have the power in the mainstream media like the Zionists scientists, I bet, this news would have been a source of conversion to Islam, for many non-Muslims.
 
 
 
What do you define under the terms miracles?
 
All the stories of such 'miracles' were invented wholesale years later by his followers in the Ahadith***

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 1.454        Narrated byAnas bin Malik
Two of the companions of the Prophet departed from him on a dark night and were led by two lights like lamps (going in front of them from Allah as a miracle) lighting the way in front of them, and when they parted, each of them was accompanied by one of these lights till he reached their (respective) houses.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.831        Narrated byAnas
That the Meccan people requested Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle, and so he showed them the splitting of the moon.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 5.208        Narrated byAnas bin Malik
The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 6.387        Narrated byIbn Masud
During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle the moon was split into two parts; one part remained over the mountain, and the other part went beyond the mountain. On that, Allah's Apostle said, "Witness this miracle."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 6.388        Narrated byAbdullah
The moon was cleft asunder while we were in the company of the Prophet, and it became two parts. The Prophet said, "Witness, witness (this miracle)."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 6.390        Narrated byAnas
The people of Mecca asked the Prophet to show them a sign (miracle). So he showed them (the miracle) of the cleaving of the moon.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 8.115        Narrated byAnas
A man came to the Prophet on a Friday while he (the Prophet) was delivering a sermon at Medina, and said, "There is lack of rain, so please invoke your Lord to bless us with the rain." The Prophet looked at the sky when no cloud could be detected. Then he invoked Allah for rain. Clouds started gathering together and it rained till the Medina valleys started flowing with water. It continued raining till the next Friday. Then that man (or some other man) stood up while the Prophet was delivering the Friday sermon, and said, "We are drowned; Please invoke your Lord to withhold it (rain) from us." The Prophet smiled and said twice or thrice, "O Allah! Please let it rain round about us and not upon us." The clouds started dispersing over Medina to the right and to the left, and it rained round about Medina and not upon Medina. Allah showed them (the people) the miracle of His Prophet and His response to his invocation.

       *** The 'story' of the alleged miracle of the splitting of the moon - a cosmic event of catastrophic significance- was only observed in Arabia and only by Muhammad and his entourage in Mecca.

       None of the great civilizations of the time were able to observe this event nor were they aware of it to report it. Presumably, the moon was eventually put together.

        These stories of alleged miracles were invented by his followers years after his death to make him appear superhuman and semi divine despite the fact that both the Quran and other Ahadith firmly deny that Muhammad was able to perform any miracles ***
 
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Quote _ALI_ Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2009 at 5:32am
Salam Jouberar
My statements are normal, not bolded/coloured/in italics in the following.
What do you define under the terms miracles?
 
All the stories of such 'miracles' were invented wholesale years later by his followers in the Ahadith***
You don't have any proof of that, it is just a baseless allegation. Furthermore, prophet Muhammad never said that you should believe in Islam because of the miracles. The fact remains that as evident from the stories of Moses and Jesus, miracles are never a requirement for a true believer and they never suffice for a non-believer. But still, prophet Muhammad performed many miracles to strengthen the beliefs of Muslims at that time. Even then, Muslim preachers rarely use miracles of the prophet as a basis of calling towards Islam (unlike our Christian brethren)
 
.*** The 'story' of the alleged miracle of the splitting of the moon - a cosmic event of catastrophic significance-
I agree that the splitting of the moon has catastrophic significance, like splitting a sea in two and curing leprosy miraculously. All miracles have catastrophic significances but the possible catastrophies which could follow can also be controlled by God.
was only observed in Arabia and only by Muhammad and his entourage in Mecca.

       None of the great civilizations of the time were able to observe this event nor were they aware of it to report it. Presumably, the moon was eventually put together.
First of, not every civilization was able to view it because when there was night at Arabia, there was day at the other half of the world. And the moon did not remained split the whole night. Still we have reports of the miracles being observed in India.
 

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book “Muhammad Rasulullah,” by M. Hamidullah:

 

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.

 
These stories of alleged miracles were invented by his followers years after his death to make him appear superhuman and semi divine
No Muslim will ever say that prophet Muhammad was divine. No prophet has ever performed a miracle, instead Allah has performed it through that prophet. Even according to the Bible, Jesus Christ never performed any miracles. God performed them.  
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
despite the fact that both the Quran and other Ahadith firmly deny that Muhammad was able to perform any miracles ***
Quran and hadith firmly deny that all prophets including Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc were unable to perform any miracles. God is the one who performs miracles through his prophets.
Peace
 


Edited by _ALI_ - 28 September 2009 at 10:35pm
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2009 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by _ALI_

These stories of alleged miracles were invented by his followers years after his death to make him appear superhuman and semi divine

Indeed, how easily Muslims fall into the sin of Shirk!
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote _ALI_ Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2009 at 10:39pm
I never said that. I was only quoting Jouberar. And read my reply. Like I said, no Muslim will ever say that prophet Muhammad was divine. No prophet has ever performed a miracle, instead Allah has performed it through that prophet
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2009 at 11:02pm
He has returned to this topic after being gone for five months, only to slander a Muslim of commiting shirk,Amazing!Humanism!
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Quote JOUBERAR Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2009 at 12:49am
Originally posted by _ALI_

Salam Jouberar
My statements are normal, not bolded/coloured/in italics in the following.
What do you define under the terms miracles?
 
All the stories of such 'miracles' were invented wholesale years later by his followers in the Ahadith***
You don't have any proof of that, it is just a baseless allegation. Furthermore, prophet Muhammad never said that you should believe in Islam because of the miracles. The fact remains that as evident from the stories of Moses and Jesus, miracles are never a requirement for a true believer and they never suffice for a non-believer. But still, prophet Muhammad performed many miracles to strengthen the beliefs of Muslims at that time. Even then, Muslim preachers rarely use miracles of the prophet as a basis of calling towards Islam (unlike our Christian brethren)
 
.*** The 'story' of the alleged miracle of the splitting of the moon - a cosmic event of catastrophic significance-
I agree that the splitting of the moon has catastrophic significance, like splitting a sea in two and curing leprosy miraculously. All miracles have catastrophic significances but the possible catastrophies which could follow can also be controlled by God.
was only observed in Arabia and only by Muhammad and his entourage in Mecca.

       None of the great civilizations of the time were able to observe this event nor were they aware of it to report it. Presumably, the moon was eventually put together.
First of, not every civilization was able to view it because when there was night at Arabia, there was day at the other half of the world. And the moon did not remained split the whole night. Still we have reports of the miracles being observed in India.
 

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book “Muhammad Rasulullah,” by M. Hamidullah:

 

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.

 
These stories of alleged miracles were invented by his followers years after his death to make him appear superhuman and semi divine
No Muslim will ever say that prophet Muhammad was divine. No prophet has ever performed a miracle, instead Allah has performed it through that prophet. Even according to the Bible, Jesus Christ never performed any miracles. God performed them.  
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
despite the fact that both the Quran and other Ahadith firmly deny that Muhammad was able to perform any miracles ***
Quran and hadith firmly deny that all prophets including Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc were unable to perform any miracles. God is the one who performs miracles through his prophets.
Peace
 
 
The amazing and wonderful phenomenon of the splitting of the Moon was a manifest sign of the truth that the Resurrection, of which the Holy Prophet was giving them the news, could take place and that it had approached near at hand. The great sphere of the Moon had split into two distinct parts in front of their very eyes. The two parts had separated and receded so much apart from each other that to the on-lookers one part had appeared on one side of the mountain and the other on the other side of it. Then, in an instant the two had rejoined.

However, there are several problems with this story.

The main problem is that it contradicts the Qur'an itself. In various places Muhammad admitted he could not or did not have to perform miracles to prove himself. When asked to perform miracles his response was:

Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger? Quran 17:93

Moiz Amjad, a scholar that answers questions for Understanding-Islam.com says (here), “I have not yet come across any historical accounts of other nations, which refer to the incident.” He thinks this is “a sign of the promised hour.”

Curiously the same site contradicts itself (here) and claims that in fact a certain king of India observed the splitting of the Moon and he sent his son to Mecca who converted to Islam and upon returning he died in Yemen.

This story is of course another fabrication of Muslims (as proven here). Muslims are fond of fabricating stories to attribute Miracles to their prophet. They do it all the time. One such ridiculous fabrication was the claim that the astronauts who landed on the Moon heard the adhan (Muslim call to prayer) being chanted there. (Please see: Fake Conversions - Neil Armstrong) There are thousands more.

First of all there is no record that any King of India ever visited Muhammad. This is not mentioned in any biography of Muhammad.

Secondly the splitting of the Moon should have been observed by everyone all over the world and not just by one king. Where is the record of such a phenomenon?

Thirdly, assuming that this Indian king saw the splitting of the Moon, how could he interpret this alleged cosmic phenomenon as the sign that there has appeared a new prophet in Mecca? Muslims claim that Indian scriptures contain predictions about the coming of a messenger from Arabia. This is bull. There is no mention of Muhammad in any sacred book of any religion.

Many Muslims are convinced that this phenomenon has indeed happened. They are shown these close-up pictures of the Moon taken by NASA as the evidence and as gullible as they naturally are, they believe without any hesitation.

        
 
These are called Lunar Rilles. Rilles are long and deep gorges resembling canyons. A rille is typically several kilometers wide and hundreds of kilometers in length. Similar formations are found on a number of planets in the solar system, including Mars, Venus, and on a number of moons.
 
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:05pm

I apologize for any offense.  To be honest, it never occurred to me that anyone would take my remark as slander.  The Christian tradition (which is my heritage but not my faith) is that we are all sinners, so we accept it as a simple fact, not a slander.  What I meant to say is that Muslims are prone to make the mistake of treating Muhammad as a partner to Allah -- a junior partner, certainly, but a partner nonetheless.  (And I hope it is not considered slanderous to suggest that someone might be mistaken.)

Rather than prolonging this digression, I will start a new discussion, called "Muhammad as a partner with Allah".

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2009 at 9:49pm
***


Edited by Sign*Reader - 12 October 2009 at 11:05pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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