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 Taken from http://unveiling-christianity.com/2008/12/25/did-paul-ever-speak-and-teach-on-his-own/#more-243

 Did Paul ever speak and teach on his own?

 Posted by Ibn Anwar on December 25, 2008

			 Textual evidence for Paul’s non-inspiration
by Ibn Anwar
 Christians would have it that their liege
lord Paul of Tarsus was ever inspired and received direct revelation
from Jesus Christ himself. This concept stems from the following
verses(and many others):
“For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the Gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but through revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12)
“If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.”(1 Corinthians 14:37)
And of course, the famous 2 Timothy 3:16:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

In the verses from Galatians and 1
Corinthians we see that Paul claims that he received revelation from
Jesus Christ and that whatever he writes(teaches) are the commandment
of the Lord. Then, in 2 Timothy 3:16 we read a most infamous verse
which claims that “ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God…”. In
other words, the whole Bible including the teachings and words of Paul
of Tarsus are inspired by God according to the said verse. Let us see
if this is true. In order to do this we shall take a close look at 2
verses attributed to Paul in his epistles.
Titus 1:12-14
“Even one of their own prophets has said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith and pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.”
The person being quoted by Paul in the above passage is Epimenides according to numerous reputable Christian Bible commentaries.
“III In reference to their people or
hearers, who are described from ancient testimony given of them. 1.
Here is the witness(v. 12): One of themselves, even a prophet of their
own, that is, one of the Cretans, not of the Jews, Epimenides a Greek poet, likely to know and unlikely to slander them.” [1] (emphasis added)
“Even one of their own prophets has
said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”(1:12). The
Greek is better rendered,”Even one of them, their own prophet.” Here
“prophet” is used in the sense of a religious leader or reformer. The reference is to Epimenides,
the fifth-century B.C. poet honored by the people of Crete. The
contemptuous evaluation of the Cretans is reflected in pagan writings
and even in the Greek language itself, where the word kretizo,”to
Crete-ize,” came to mean “to lie” or “to cheat”.” [2] (emphasis added)
“(m) Epimenides, who was considered a prophet amongst them. See Laertius, and Cicero in his first book of divination.” [3] (emphasis added)
“A prophet of their own. A Cretan sage, seer and teacher, Epimenides by name, who lived about 500 B.C.

The Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. The hard testimony of his countrymen is quoted from a poem now lost.” [4] (empasis added)
“1:12, Cretans…gluttons: quoted from Epimenides, a Cretan poet of the sixth century B.C.” [5] (emphasis added)
“In 1:12, Paul quotes the Greek poet Epimenides, who wrote “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” [6] (emphasis added)
“He quotes Epimenides, one of their own poetic spokesmen who lived around 600 B.C.” [7] 
“12. One - Epimenides of Phaestus, or Gnossus, in Crete…” [8] 
“12. Invective against opponents supported by a hexameter from the Cretan poet Epimenides (ca. 600 BCE)” [9]
Some of you might ask, “so what exactly is
the problem?”. Well, it’s quite simple and straight forward really. The
person quoted is Epimenides. He says that,”Cretans are ALWAYS liars”.
The Greek word for always here is ἀεὶ(aei) which means “ever and
always”(without exception). So, the problem is that this testimony is
by Epimenides who is HIMSELF a CRETAN! And Paul affirms the testimony
without hesitation as he put it:
“This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith…”
If Epimenides is a Cretan and the
testimony in question says “Cretans are ALWAYS liars” which Paul
affirms then how can the testimony be true in the first place? If
Epimenides is a Cretan and they always lie then how is his testimony
here true? Do you understand what always means? Any reasonable person
will no doubt agree with me that there’s a big logical problem here.
Indeed, it is a huge stumbling block.
I had an hour long discussion on this with
a Christian apologist and the defense which he mustered was quite
interesting however false it was. Instead of dealing with the logical
problem of the passage he tried to spun an entirely different
interpretation of the text. He claimed that Paul was not affirming what
the quotation says, but rather the quotation itself i.e. he’s saying
that the quotation is authentic(actually said by someone). The problem
with this explanation is that it just does not correlate with the text
which itself is quite clear:
“Even one of their own prophets has said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith…”
Paul believes that the testimony which he
is reporting is true so he says THEREFORE or as the NASB translates it
“FOR THIS REASON” REBUKE THEM SHARPLY. What’s the reason? What’s to
rebuke? To rebuke is to scold, to refute, to correct, to reproach etc.
Do you rebuke someone on the basis of a quotation which is not true? 
No! The reason for the rebuking is because according to Paul the
TESTIMONY that says Cretans are always liars is true i.e. what is said
by it is true! As Matthew Henry explains:
“2. Here is the matter of his testimony: The Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, slow bellies. Even to a proverb, they were infamous for falsehood and lying. 3. Here is the verification of this by the apostle himself: v. 13. This witness is true.” [10]  (emphasis added)
The following Bible translation is quite helpful:
“It was a Cretan prophet, one of their own countrymen, who said, ‘Cretans were ever liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons’ - and how truly he spoke! All the more reason why you should rebuke them sharply…”(Revised Standard Version, Oxford and Cambridge University Press)
Let us consider several  more commentaries
that admit to the fact that Paul believes the testimony made by the
Cretan Epimenides to be factual.
“…generally considered to be Epimenides, a contemporary of Solon (about 600 B.C.)… The indictment is severe, but this testimony is true.” [11]  (emphasis added)
“13. This witness is true. Paul confirms these as facts and says rebuke them sharply.” [12]  (emphasis added)
“the apostle confirms the accuracy of the character sketch.” [13]  (emphasis added)
“13. This witness “This testimony(though coming from a Cretan) is true.”  [14]  (emphasis added)
The logical problem : Epimenides was a
Cretan. He claims that CRETANS ARE ALWAYS LIARS. Paul says this
testimony from Epimenides the Cretan is true. How can it be true if
Cretans ALWAYS lie? If Epimenides who was himself a Cretan was telling
the truth with regards to the statement, then how can Paul agree with
the statement that Cretans ALWAYS lie? If Epimenides was telling the
truth then obvously Cretans do not always lie.
The result: Paul was deluded and uninspired.
References:
[1] Matthew Henry.  Matthew Henry’s New Testament Commentary(1995).  Great Britain: Hadder and Stoughton. p. 387
[2] Richard, Lawrence O. , The Victor Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Victor Books, p. 540
[3] Geneva Study Bible
[4] People’s New Testament
[5] Firstside New American Bible. Wichita, Kansas: Freeside Bible Publishers. p. 1319
[6] NKJV Study Bible. Thomas Nelson 2nd Edition. p. 1932
[7] William MacDonald. Believer’s Bible Commentary. Thomas Nelson Publishers. p. 2138
[8] Jamieson, Fausset & Brown’s Commentary. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House. p. 1386
[9] The New Oxford Annotated Bible(2007). Oxford. p. 363
[10] Matthew Henry. Op. Cit. p.387
[11] The Wesleyan Bible Commentary. Vol. 5, p. 643-644
[12] Liberty Bible Commentary. The Old Time Hour, Lyncburg, Virginia, p. 655
[13] William MacDonald. Op. Cit. 
[14] Jamieson, Fausset & Brown’s Commentary. Op. Cit.

1 Corinthians 7:25
“Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.”
The ISV, NASB etc. translates judgment as “opinion”. This is because the Greek word gnome
can also be understood as opinion. Whichever it is, I believe the verse
speaks for itself. Paul speaks on his own prerogative without divine
intervention. Is it possible that he speaks presumptuously here? The
typical Christian answer is of course a definite no. However, it does
go well with numerous passages that clearly show him as nothing more
than a charlatan and a deceiver as we see in the previous articles on
Paul. Anyway, it is woth noting that several commentaries agree that
Paul received no divine judgment here, but he rather spoke out of his
own opinion.
“II. The determination he gives, which,
considering the present distress, was that a state of celibacy was
preferable: It is good for a man so to be, that is, to be single. I
suppose, says the apostle or it is my opinion. It is worded with
modesty, but delivered, notwithstanding, with apostolic authority.”[1]
The concession given in the above
commentary is that Paul spoke out of modesty, but, with apostolic
authority. Is Paul really all that modest? Interestingly, another
reputable commentary contradicts Matthew Henry.
“He appeals neither to his apostleship nor to his authority in Christ… Paul will give his own judgment…”[2]
In short, Paul gave his own opinion and I do not believe he was inspired to say it.
References:
[1] Matthew Henry. Op. Cit. p. 235
[2] Gordon D. Fee. The First Epistle to the Corinthians. William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 328

Author	Message
Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 05 April 2009 at 12:17am
	Taken from http://unveiling-christianity.com/2008/12/25/did-paul-ever-speak-and-teach-on-his-own/#more-243 Did Paul ever speak and teach on his own? Posted by Ibn Anwar on December 25, 2008 Textual evidence for Paul’s non-inspiration by Ibn Anwar Christians would have it that their liege lord Paul of Tarsus was ever inspired and received direct revelation from Jesus Christ himself. This concept stems from the following verses(and many others): “For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the Gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but through revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12) “If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.”(1 Corinthians 14:37) And of course, the famous 2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” In the verses from Galatians and 1 Corinthians we see that Paul claims that he received revelation from Jesus Christ and that whatever he writes(teaches) are the commandment of the Lord. Then, in 2 Timothy 3:16 we read a most infamous verse which claims that “ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God…”. In other words, the whole Bible including the teachings and words of Paul of Tarsus are inspired by God according to the said verse. Let us see if this is true. In order to do this we shall take a close look at 2 verses attributed to Paul in his epistles. Titus 1:12-14 “Even one of their own prophets has said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith and pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.” The person being quoted by Paul in the above passage is Epimenides according to numerous reputable Christian Bible commentaries. “III In reference to their people or hearers, who are described from ancient testimony given of them. 1. Here is the witness(v. 12): One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, that is, one of the Cretans, not of the Jews, Epimenides a Greek poet, likely to know and unlikely to slander them.” [1] (emphasis added) “Even one of their own prophets has said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”(1:12). The Greek is better rendered,”Even one of them, their own prophet.” Here “prophet” is used in the sense of a religious leader or reformer. The reference is to Epimenides, the fifth-century B.C. poet honored by the people of Crete. The contemptuous evaluation of the Cretans is reflected in pagan writings and even in the Greek language itself, where the word kretizo,”to Crete-ize,” came to mean “to lie” or “to cheat”.” [2] (emphasis added) “(m) Epimenides, who was considered a prophet amongst them. See Laertius, and Cicero in his first book of divination.” [3] (emphasis added) “A prophet of their own. A Cretan sage, seer and teacher, Epimenides by name, who lived about 500 B.C. The Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. The hard testimony of his countrymen is quoted from a poem now lost.” [4] (empasis added) “1:12, Cretans…gluttons: quoted from Epimenides, a Cretan poet of the sixth century B.C.” [5] (emphasis added) “In 1:12, Paul quotes the Greek poet Epimenides, who wrote “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” [6] (emphasis added) “He quotes Epimenides, one of their own poetic spokesmen who lived around 600 B.C.” [7] “12. One - Epimenides of Phaestus, or Gnossus, in Crete…” [8] “12. Invective against opponents supported by a hexameter from the Cretan poet Epimenides (ca. 600 BCE)” [9] Some of you might ask, “so what exactly is the problem?”. Well, it’s quite simple and straight forward really. The person quoted is Epimenides. He says that,”Cretans are ALWAYS liars”. The Greek word for always here is ἀεὶ(aei) which means “ever and always”(without exception). So, the problem is that this testimony is by Epimenides who is HIMSELF a CRETAN! And Paul affirms the testimony without hesitation as he put it: “This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith…” If Epimenides is a Cretan and the testimony in question says “Cretans are ALWAYS liars” which Paul affirms then how can the testimony be true in the first place? If Epimenides is a Cretan and they always lie then how is his testimony here true? Do you understand what always means? Any reasonable person will no doubt agree with me that there’s a big logical problem here. Indeed, it is a huge stumbling block. I had an hour long discussion on this with a Christian apologist and the defense which he mustered was quite interesting however false it was. Instead of dealing with the logical problem of the passage he tried to spun an entirely different interpretation of the text. He claimed that Paul was not affirming what the quotation says, but rather the quotation itself i.e. he’s saying that the quotation is authentic(actually said by someone). The problem with this explanation is that it just does not correlate with the text which itself is quite clear: “Even one of their own prophets has said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith…” Paul believes that the testimony which he is reporting is true so he says THEREFORE or as the NASB translates it “FOR THIS REASON” REBUKE THEM SHARPLY. What’s the reason? What’s to rebuke? To rebuke is to scold, to refute, to correct, to reproach etc. Do you rebuke someone on the basis of a quotation which is not true? No! The reason for the rebuking is because according to Paul the TESTIMONY that says Cretans are always liars is true i.e. what is said by it is true! As Matthew Henry explains: “2. Here is the matter of his testimony: The Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, slow bellies. Even to a proverb, they were infamous for falsehood and lying. 3. Here is the verification of this by the apostle himself: v. 13. This witness is true.” [10] (emphasis added) The following Bible translation is quite helpful: “It was a Cretan prophet, one of their own countrymen, who said, ‘Cretans were ever liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons’ - and how truly he spoke! All the more reason why you should rebuke them sharply…”(Revised Standard Version, Oxford and Cambridge University Press) Let us consider several more commentaries that admit to the fact that Paul believes the testimony made by the Cretan Epimenides to be factual. “…generally considered to be Epimenides, a contemporary of Solon (about 600 B.C.)… The indictment is severe, but this testimony is true.” [11] (emphasis added) “13. This witness is true. Paul confirms these as facts and says rebuke them sharply.” [12] (emphasis added) “the apostle confirms the accuracy of the character sketch.” [13] (emphasis added) “13. This witness “This testimony(though coming from a Cretan) is true.” [14] (emphasis added) The logical problem : Epimenides was a Cretan. He claims that CRETANS ARE ALWAYS LIARS. Paul says this testimony from Epimenides the Cretan is true. How can it be true if Cretans ALWAYS lie? If Epimenides who was himself a Cretan was telling the truth with regards to the statement, then how can Paul agree with the statement that Cretans ALWAYS lie? If Epimenides was telling the truth then obvously Cretans do not always lie. The result: Paul was deluded and uninspired. References: [1] Matthew Henry. Matthew Henry’s New Testament Commentary(1995). Great Britain: Hadder and Stoughton. p. 387 [2] Richard, Lawrence O. , The Victor Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Victor Books, p. 540 [3] Geneva Study Bible [4] People’s New Testament [5] Firstside New American Bible. Wichita, Kansas: Freeside Bible Publishers. p. 1319 [6] NKJV Study Bible. Thomas Nelson 2nd Edition. p. 1932 [7] William MacDonald. Believer’s Bible Commentary. Thomas Nelson Publishers. p. 2138 [8] Jamieson, Fausset & Brown’s Commentary. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House. p. 1386 [9] The New Oxford Annotated Bible(2007). Oxford. p. 363 [10] Matthew Henry. Op. Cit. p.387 [11] The Wesleyan Bible Commentary. Vol. 5, p. 643-644 [12] Liberty Bible Commentary. The Old Time Hour, Lyncburg, Virginia, p. 655 [13] William MacDonald. Op. Cit. [14] Jamieson, Fausset & Brown’s Commentary. Op. Cit. 1 Corinthians 7:25 “Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.” The ISV, NASB etc. translates judgment as “opinion”. This is because the Greek word gnome can also be understood as opinion. Whichever it is, I believe the verse speaks for itself. Paul speaks on his own prerogative without divine intervention. Is it possible that he speaks presumptuously here? The typical Christian answer is of course a definite no. However, it does go well with numerous passages that clearly show him as nothing more than a charlatan and a deceiver as we see in the previous articles on Paul. Anyway, it is woth noting that several commentaries agree that Paul received no divine judgment here, but he rather spoke out of his own opinion. “II. The determination he gives, which, considering the present distress, was that a state of celibacy was preferable: It is good for a man so to be, that is, to be single. I suppose, says the apostle or it is my opinion. It is worded with modesty, but delivered, notwithstanding, with apostolic authority.”[1] The concession given in the above commentary is that Paul spoke out of modesty, but, with apostolic authority. Is Paul really all that modest? Interestingly, another reputable commentary contradicts Matthew Henry. “He appeals neither to his apostleship nor to his authority in Christ… Paul will give his own judgment…”[2] In short, Paul gave his own opinion and I do not believe he was inspired to say it. References: [1] Matthew Henry. Op. Cit. p. 235 [2] Gordon D. Fee. The First Epistle to the Corinthians. William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 328
	IP Logged

Doo-bop Senior Member Joined: 04 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 531	Posted: 05 April 2009 at 5:42am
	*Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* Taken from http://unveiling-christianity.com/2008/12/25/did-paul-ever-speak-and-teach-on-his-own/#more-243 Did Paul ever speak and teach on his own? Posted by Ibn Anwar on December 25, 2008 Textual evidence for Paul’s non-inspiration by Ibn Anwar Christians would have it that their liege lord Paul of Tarsus was ever inspired and received direct revelation from Jesus Christ himself. This concept stems from the following verses(and many others): “For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the Gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but through revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12) “If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.”(1 Corinthians 14:37) And of course, the famous 2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” In the verses from Galatians and 1 Corinthians we see that Paul claims that he received revelation from Jesus Christ and that whatever he writes(teaches) are the commandment of the Lord. Then, in 2 Timothy 3:16 we read a most infamous verse which claims that “ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God…”. In other words, the whole Bible including the teachings and words of Paul of Tarsus are inspired by God according to the said verse. Let us see if this is true. In order to do this we shall take a close look at 2 verses attributed to Paul in his epistles. Titus 1:12-14 “Even one of their own prophets has said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith and pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.” The person being quoted by Paul in the above passage is Epimenides according to numerous reputable Christian Bible commentaries. “III In reference to their people or hearers, who are described from ancient testimony given of them. 1. Here is the witness(v. 12): One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, that is, one of the Cretans, not of the Jews, Epimenides a Greek poet, likely to know and unlikely to slander them.” [1] (emphasis added) “Even one of their own prophets has said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”(1:12). The Greek is better rendered,”Even one of them, their own prophet.” Here “prophet” is used in the sense of a religious leader or reformer. The reference is to Epimenides, the fifth-century B.C. poet honored by the people of Crete. The contemptuous evaluation of the Cretans is reflected in pagan writings and even in the Greek language itself, where the word kretizo,”to Crete-ize,” came to mean “to lie” or “to cheat”.” [2] (emphasis added) “(m) Epimenides, who was considered a prophet amongst them. See Laertius, and Cicero in his first book of divination.” [3] (emphasis added) “A prophet of their own. A Cretan sage, seer and teacher, Epimenides by name, who lived about 500 B.C. The Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. The hard testimony of his countrymen is quoted from a poem now lost.” [4] (empasis added) “1:12, Cretans…gluttons: quoted from Epimenides, a Cretan poet of the sixth century B.C.” [5] (emphasis added) “In 1:12, Paul quotes the Greek poet Epimenides, who wrote “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” [6] (emphasis added) “He quotes Epimenides, one of their own poetic spokesmen who lived around 600 B.C.” [7] “12. One - Epimenides of Phaestus, or Gnossus, in Crete…” [8] “12. Invective against opponents supported by a hexameter from the Cretan poet Epimenides (ca. 600 BCE)” [9] Some of you might ask, “so what exactly is the problem?”. Well, it’s quite simple and straight forward really. The person quoted is Epimenides. He says that,”Cretans are ALWAYS liars”. The Greek word for always here is ἀεὶ(aei) which means “ever and always”(without exception). So, the problem is that this testimony is by Epimenides who is HIMSELF a CRETAN! And Paul affirms the testimony without hesitation as he put it: “This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith…” If Epimenides is a Cretan and the testimony in question says “Cretans are ALWAYS liars” which Paul affirms then how can the testimony be true in the first place? If Epimenides is a Cretan and they always lie then how is his testimony here true? Do you understand what always means? Any reasonable person will no doubt agree with me that there’s a big logical problem here. Indeed, it is a huge stumbling block. I had an hour long discussion on this with a Christian apologist and the defense which he mustered was quite interesting however false it was. Instead of dealing with the logical problem of the passage he tried to spun an entirely different interpretation of the text. He claimed that Paul was not affirming what the quotation says, but rather the quotation itself i.e. he’s saying that the quotation is authentic(actually said by someone). The problem with this explanation is that it just does not correlate with the text which itself is quite clear: “Even one of their own prophets has said,”Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in faith…” Paul believes that the testimony which he is reporting is true so he says THEREFORE or as the NASB translates it “FOR THIS REASON” REBUKE THEM SHARPLY. What’s the reason? What’s to rebuke? To rebuke is to scold, to refute, to correct, to reproach etc. Do you rebuke someone on the basis of a quotation which is not true? No! The reason for the rebuking is because according to Paul the TESTIMONY that says Cretans are always liars is true i.e. what is said by it is true! As Matthew Henry explains: “2. Here is the matter of his testimony: The Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, slow bellies. Even to a proverb, they were infamous for falsehood and lying. 3. Here is the verification of this by the apostle himself: v. 13. This witness is true.” [10] (emphasis added) The following Bible translation is quite helpful: “It was a Cretan prophet, one of their own countrymen, who said, ‘Cretans were ever liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons’ - and how truly he spoke! All the more reason why you should rebuke them sharply…”(Revised Standard Version, Oxford and Cambridge University Press) Let us consider several more commentaries that admit to the fact that Paul believes the testimony made by the Cretan Epimenides to be factual. “…generally considered to be Epimenides, a contemporary of Solon (about 600 B.C.)… The indictment is severe, but this testimony is true.” [11] (emphasis added) “13. This witness is true. Paul confirms these as facts and says rebuke them sharply.” [12] (emphasis added) “the apostle confirms the accuracy of the character sketch.” [13] (emphasis added) “13. This witness “This testimony(though coming from a Cretan) is true.” [14] (emphasis added) The logical problem : Epimenides was a Cretan. He claims that CRETANS ARE ALWAYS LIARS. Paul says this testimony from Epimenides the Cretan is true. How can it be true if Cretans ALWAYS lie? If Epimenides who was himself a Cretan was telling the truth with regards to the statement, then how can Paul agree with the statement that Cretans ALWAYS lie? If Epimenides was telling the truth then obvously Cretans do not always lie. The result: Paul was deluded and uninspired. References: [1] Matthew Henry. Matthew Henry’s New Testament Commentary(1995). Great Britain: Hadder and Stoughton. p. 387 [2] Richard, Lawrence O. , The Victor Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Victor Books, p. 540 [3] Geneva Study Bible [4] People’s New Testament [5] Firstside New American Bible. Wichita, Kansas: Freeside Bible Publishers. p. 1319 [6] NKJV Study Bible. Thomas Nelson 2nd Edition. p. 1932 [7] William MacDonald. Believer’s Bible Commentary. Thomas Nelson Publishers. p. 2138 [8] Jamieson, Fausset & Brown’s Commentary. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House. p. 1386 [9] The New Oxford Annotated Bible(2007). Oxford. p. 363 [10] Matthew Henry. Op. Cit. p.387 [11] The Wesleyan Bible Commentary. Vol. 5, p. 643-644 [12] Liberty Bible Commentary. The Old Time Hour, Lyncburg, Virginia, p. 655 [13] William MacDonald. Op. Cit. [14] Jamieson, Fausset & Brown’s Commentary. Op. Cit. 1 Corinthians 7:25 “Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.” The ISV, NASB etc. translates judgment as “opinion”. This is because the Greek word gnome can also be understood as opinion. Whichever it is, I believe the verse speaks for itself. Paul speaks on his own prerogative without divine intervention. Is it possible that he speaks presumptuously here? The typical Christian answer is of course a definite no. However, it does go well with numerous passages that clearly show him as nothing more than a charlatan and a deceiver as we see in the previous articles on Paul. Anyway, it is woth noting that several commentaries agree that Paul received no divine judgment here, but he rather spoke out of his own opinion. “II. The determination he gives, which, considering the present distress, was that a state of celibacy was preferable: It is good for a man so to be, that is, to be single. I suppose, says the apostle or it is my opinion. It is worded with modesty, but delivered, notwithstanding, with apostolic authority.”[1] The concession given in the above commentary is that Paul spoke out of modesty, but, with apostolic authority. Is Paul really all that modest? Interestingly, another reputable commentary contradicts Matthew Henry. “He appeals neither to his apostleship nor to his authority in Christ… Paul will give his own judgment…”[2] In short, Paul gave his own opinion and I do not believe he was inspired to say it. References: [1] Matthew Henry. Op. Cit. p. 235 [2] Gordon D. Fee. The First Epistle to the Corinthians. William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 328 hmmmm.....what has this all got to do with "Muhammad in the Bible"?
	"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)
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JOUBERAR Guest Group Joined: 13 March 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 573	Posted: 05 April 2009 at 11:32pm
	*Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* *Originally posted by JOUBERAR* Because Muhammed could perform miracles because he is not out God. What about Christ?He also performed miracles So he is not Prophet?Do you agree with me? *Originally posted by JOUBERAR* The Apostle Paul did not start Christianity out of his own Christ inspire him through the holy spirit and by the way he was on his way to Damascus to kill christians when Christ apear to him. Why would he become a christian if he was a member of the jewis council and a pharisee and they gave him the legal rights to kill christian and persecute all of a sudden put his own life in danger and start begining spread the word of God through christianity and you must remember there was also a so called prophecy of him that he fore told Muhammed coming this Paul you said is corrupter. Thomas Jefferson "Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." (All references not listed here, can be found in Christianity Betrayed) Pauline Theology Jesus VS Paul Peace or no Peace Paul on Divorce Paul on Marriage Did he really meet Jesus Prisoner of Christ The Jews Killed Jesus Pauls blunder- Shows how Paul was wrong concerning the End times. Paul and the Jewish Law Christian and Pagan beliefs-See how a major Christian saint and Church father states that Christian beliefs which were introduced by Paul are exactly the same as Pagan beliefs! Paul VS the Disciples Paul and Circumcision Paul and Animal Offerings Did Paul meet Satan Paul the False Prophet Paul the Liar Paul had say nothing bad about Christianity and other people if you read what he have written in a wide context you will see what he meant he explained Christianity in a more understandable way and he explain to them that they must put GOD first before anything in thier lives and he have made Christianity his way of living so he have done it before he was a Christian he made Judaism his way of living. Apostle Paul was a very well educated Pharisee. Edited by JOUBERAR - 05 April 2009 at 11:40pm
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JOUBERAR Guest Group Joined: 13 March 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 573	Posted: 06 April 2009 at 1:13am
	*Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* *Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* Here is 516-page refutation of the false apostle Paul: `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Pauline_Corruption_of_Biblical_Analysis.pdf` `2: Jude's Epistle - More Evidence of rift between Jerusalem and Paul` `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Jude_s_Epistle__More_Evidence_of_Rift_Between_` `Jerusalem_and_Paul__.pdf` `3: Was Paul or James' Church the more successful evangelists ?` `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Was_Paul_or_James__Church_the_more_succesfull_Evangelist.pdf` `4: Jesus or Paul ? - Lecture by a former Christian Priest` `http://islamic-answers.com/jesus_or_paul_____audio_lecture_` `For more info check:` `http://islamic-answers.com/christianity` Here is my one of favourite articles about Paul.Taken from http://answering-christianity.com/pauls_delusions.htm Paul's Delusions: In 1 Corinthians 7:40, he claimed that he "thinks" that he has the Holy Spirit in him! The sections of this article are: 1- Paul's claim in 1 Corinthians 7:40. 2- The serious issue. 3- Conclusion. 1- Paul's claim in 1 Corinthians 7:40: During my debate with Dr. James White, I raised many points that left him dead silent and spinning around himself (See especially minutes 15:00 and 19:20 in the video). He even went as far as calling me a liar (again, see the minute-positions that I gave). One of those points that I silenced him on was quoting 1 Corinthians 7:40, where Paul stated that he "thinks" he has the Spirit of GOD Almighty in him. My point was this: 1- For Paul to say that he "thinks" he has the Holy Spirit, he obviously wasn't even sure 100% that he had It. 2- I gave the example by pointing my finger in the direction of where my wife was sitting and said: "For instance, I don't say I THINK I am seeing my wife. No! I see my wife! She's sitting over there. You have to speak with authority and confidence, especially when you declare yourself to be a Prophet who was sent from GOD Almighty." If I were to say that I think I see my wife, and she's only some 10-20 feet away, then this would tell you that my eye sight is poor and I would need eyeglasses. Same thing with Paul. If he wasn't even sure whether or not GOD Almighty's Spirit was in him, then we have a problem. This was one of the points that I silenced James White on during my debate with him. His sorry-reply was that I brought everything "except for the kitchen's sink." Reading between the lines: Meaning that I (James white) have no response to this point! It is also worth mentioning that James White, who happily posted all of his debates with incompetent clowns like Nadir Ahmed, has only posted his 20-minute "rebuttal" to me, which actually when you listen through it, you'll see that he was cornered and silenced on many many points, and that he was only whining. Furthermore, and as I mentioned above, James White called me a liar for quoting Paul saying that he "thinks" he has the Holy Spirit. Well, I'll let the English translations speak on this. Let us look at what Paul said: 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New International Version) 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New American Standard Bible) 40 But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Amplified Bible) 40 But in my opinion [a widow] is happier (more blessed and to be envied) if she does not remarry. And also I think I have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New Living Translation) 40 But in my opinion it would be better for her to stay single, and I think I am giving you counsel from God’s Spirit when I say this. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (King James Version) 40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (English Standard Version) 40 Yet in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New King James Version) 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (21st Century King James Version) 40 But she is happier if she so remain, in my judgment; and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (American Standard Version) 40 But she is happier if she abide as she is, after my judgment: and I think that I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Young's Literal Translation) 40 and she is happier if she may so remain -- according to my judgment; and I think I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Darby Translation) 40 But she is happier if she so remain, according to my judgment; but I think that I also have God's Spirit. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Holman Christian Standard Bible) 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, in my opinion. And I think that I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New International Reader's Version) 40 In my opinion, she is happier if she stays single. And I also think that I am led by the Spirit of God in saying that. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New International Version - UK) 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is— and I think that I too have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Today's New International Version) 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God. As virtually more than 90% of all English translations quoted Paul saying "I think", then obviously Dr. James White was only playing games and trying to desperately grapple his way out of the corner. I am confident that even his own Bible says "I think", which would really make it quite ironic. I will investigate this further, insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty is Willing). I also want to say that when I personally get my hands on the debate files, I will post them, insha'Allah. 2- The serious issue: Now moving on to the more serious issues of Paul, I believe it is a very serious thing. Paul showed absolutely no confidence and no authority in his claims about receiving Divine Revelations. When he said "I think I have the Spirit of GOD in me," that statement virtually blew away all of his credibility as a true Prophet, because what kind of a delusional and confused person was he? And what "spirit" was really inspiring him? Or was he just having plain delusions? Historically, we've heard of many many false Prophets that came and went. Our most recent one was David Koresh of Waco, Texas - USA, where he and his followers were burnt alive by the FBI, which in return caused for the Oklahoma City bombing by, Timothy McVeigh and his other partner who was never captured, and whom the US government calls "John Doe", to happen for vengeance against the US government. He also had delusions of him being inspired by GOD Almighty. So why should Paul be any different? Furthermore, since the Bible's own theologians admit that its books and gospels had all been: Written by mysterious men. Written by an unknown number of men. Written in unknown places. Written in unknown dates. then based on what objective grounds should we even consider Paul's current books to be: All 100% his work. Unaltered by men. All True Divine Revelations from GOD Almighty. I don't see that being a valid case at all. Paul clearly demonstrated his uncertainty and doubts about whether he even had the Spirit of GOD Almighty in him. 3- Conclusion: The Bible again and again is proven to be corrupt and false. Paul was also proven again and again to be a false prophet. I personally think that since liquor back then was quite harmful to the body, because it was heavily concentrated and full of bacteria and microbes, that it might've effected his head and caused him to start hearing voices and fool and mislead many with him. Islam is the Divine Truth from Allah Almighty. I strongly recommend you visit the following links: The Overwhelming Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran. Isaiah 53 further prove that Jesus never got crucified, which further confirms Islam. What is Islam? What is the status of Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims in Islam? May Allah Almighty Lead you and your families to Islam. Ameen. ³⁸So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well, but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better. 39 A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. ⁴⁰But she is happier if she so remain, in my judgment; and I think also that I have the Spirit of God Before you make any judge ment in english spirit can mean anything from soul,ghost, frame of mind,courage,disposition and liveliness. This descpription is that meant he have the agreement of God.
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JOUBERAR Guest Group Joined: 13 March 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 573	Posted: 06 April 2009 at 1:48am
	*Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* *Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* Here is 516-page refutation of the false apostle Paul: `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Pauline_Corruption_of_Biblical_Analysis.pdf` `2: Jude's Epistle - More Evidence of rift between Jerusalem and Paul` `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Jude_s_Epistle__More_Evidence_of_Rift_Between_` `Jerusalem_and_Paul__.pdf` `3: Was Paul or James' Church the more successful evangelists ?` `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Was_Paul_or_James__Church_the_more_succesfull_Evangelist.pdf` `4: Jesus or Paul ? - Lecture by a former Christian Priest` `http://islamic-answers.com/jesus_or_paul_____audio_lecture_` `For more info check:` `http://islamic-answers.com/christianity` Here is my one of favourite articles about Paul.Taken from http://answering-christianity.com/pauls_delusions.htm Paul's Delusions: In 1 Corinthians 7:40, he claimed that he "thinks" that he has the Holy Spirit in him! The sections of this article are: 1- Paul's claim in 1 Corinthians 7:40. 2- The serious issue. 3- Conclusion. 1- Paul's claim in 1 Corinthians 7:40: During my debate with Dr. James White, I raised many points that left him dead silent and spinning around himself (See especially minutes 15:00 and 19:20 in the video). He even went as far as calling me a liar (again, see the minute-positions that I gave). One of those points that I silenced him on was quoting 1 Corinthians 7:40, where Paul stated that he "thinks" he has the Spirit of GOD Almighty in him. My point was this: 1- For Paul to say that he "thinks" he has the Holy Spirit, he obviously wasn't even sure 100% that he had It. 2- I gave the example by pointing my finger in the direction of where my wife was sitting and said: "For instance, I don't say I THINK I am seeing my wife. No! I see my wife! She's sitting over there. You have to speak with authority and confidence, especially when you declare yourself to be a Prophet who was sent from GOD Almighty." If I were to say that I think I see my wife, and she's only some 10-20 feet away, then this would tell you that my eye sight is poor and I would need eyeglasses. Same thing with Paul. If he wasn't even sure whether or not GOD Almighty's Spirit was in him, then we have a problem. This was one of the points that I silenced James White on during my debate with him. His sorry-reply was that I brought everything "except for the kitchen's sink." Reading between the lines: Meaning that I (James white) have no response to this point! It is also worth mentioning that James White, who happily posted all of his debates with incompetent clowns like Nadir Ahmed, has only posted his 20-minute "rebuttal" to me, which actually when you listen through it, you'll see that he was cornered and silenced on many many points, and that he was only whining. Furthermore, and as I mentioned above, James White called me a liar for quoting Paul saying that he "thinks" he has the Holy Spirit. Well, I'll let the English translations speak on this. Let us look at what Paul said: 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New International Version) 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New American Standard Bible) 40 But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Amplified Bible) 40 But in my opinion [a widow] is happier (more blessed and to be envied) if she does not remarry. And also I think I have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New Living Translation) 40 But in my opinion it would be better for her to stay single, and I think I am giving you counsel from God’s Spirit when I say this. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (King James Version) 40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (English Standard Version) 40 Yet in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New King James Version) 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (21st Century King James Version) 40 But she is happier if she so remain, in my judgment; and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (American Standard Version) 40 But she is happier if she abide as she is, after my judgment: and I think that I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Young's Literal Translation) 40 and she is happier if she may so remain -- according to my judgment; and I think I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Darby Translation) 40 But she is happier if she so remain, according to my judgment; but I think that I also have God's Spirit. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Holman Christian Standard Bible) 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, in my opinion. And I think that I also have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New International Reader's Version) 40 In my opinion, she is happier if she stays single. And I also think that I am led by the Spirit of God in saying that. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (New International Version - UK) 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is— and I think that I too have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40 (Today's New International Version) 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God. As virtually more than 90% of all English translations quoted Paul saying "I think", then obviously Dr. James White was only playing games and trying to desperately grapple his way out of the corner. I am confident that even his own Bible says "I think", which would really make it quite ironic. I will investigate this further, insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty is Willing). I also want to say that when I personally get my hands on the debate files, I will post them, insha'Allah. 2- The serious issue: Now moving on to the more serious issues of Paul, I believe it is a very serious thing. Paul showed absolutely no confidence and no authority in his claims about receiving Divine Revelations. When he said "I think I have the Spirit of GOD in me," that statement virtually blew away all of his credibility as a true Prophet, because what kind of a delusional and confused person was he? And what "spirit" was really inspiring him? Or was he just having plain delusions? Historically, we've heard of many many false Prophets that came and went. Our most recent one was David Koresh of Waco, Texas - USA, where he and his followers were burnt alive by the FBI, which in return caused for the Oklahoma City bombing by, Timothy McVeigh and his other partner who was never captured, and whom the US government calls "John Doe", to happen for vengeance against the US government. He also had delusions of him being inspired by GOD Almighty. So why should Paul be any different? Furthermore, since the Bible's own theologians admit that its books and gospels had all been: Written by mysterious men. Written by an unknown number of men. Written in unknown places. Written in unknown dates. then based on what objective grounds should we even consider Paul's current books to be: All 100% his work. Unaltered by men. All True Divine Revelations from GOD Almighty. I don't see that being a valid case at all. Paul clearly demonstrated his uncertainty and doubts about whether he even had the Spirit of GOD Almighty in him. 3- Conclusion: The Bible again and again is proven to be corrupt and false. Paul was also proven again and again to be a false prophet. I personally think that since liquor back then was quite harmful to the body, because it was heavily concentrated and full of bacteria and microbes, that it might've effected his head and caused him to start hearing voices and fool and mislead many with him. Islam is the Divine Truth from Allah Almighty. I strongly recommend you visit the following links: The Overwhelming Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran. Isaiah 53 further prove that Jesus never got crucified, which further confirms Islam. What is Islam? What is the status of Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims in Islam? May Allah Almighty Lead you and your families to Islam. Ameen. Read all the verses of Issaiah 53 and not on particular and you wiil Prophecy is of Jesus Isaiah 53. PLEASE READ MORE VERSE'S BEFORE MAKING ANY STATEMENTS He was assigned a grave with the wicked That's a fact he was cruccified with the wicked ⁸ By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. ⁹ He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. ¹⁰ Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. ¹¹ After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. ¹² Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 06 April 2009 at 4:35am
	Paul was not a disciple of Christ.He never ever met Christ in his life.
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Akhe Abdullah Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252	Posted: 06 April 2009 at 4:42am
	So,Jouberar you do not believe that it was Paul who has changed almost everything that Jesus (As)is reported to have said,if he actually was around him at the time when Jesus said it.I think you forgot to edit the links.If not you should have because it confirms who the real Paul is(shady).He made up Christianity not Jesus(As) he had no love for the true followers of Jesus(As).
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Akhe Abdullah Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252	Posted: 06 April 2009 at 5:03am
	Christianity=The religion derived from (Jesus Christ) based on (the Bible) as sacred scripture( by definition). Paul is the main author of the Bible so Christianity is more about him than Jesus(As) Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 06 April 2009 at 5:03am
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