IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Islamic values and Western 'culture'

Author

Message

candid_new

Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 11 April 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88

Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:30am

Originally posted by Nausheen

Being westernised is a problem, but its not the only problem that challenges a muslim - neither do I see it as a lot bigger than other challenges.

Yes. Our greatest problem is lack of education. It weakens our ability to communicate. I am surprised you made no mention of our unwillingness to selflessly help poor Muslims in need, as one of our most serious weaknesses.

Perhaps, our next greatest problem.

To think one's faith is safe if they are not westernised, is just and image of safety - that is all.

Who thinks so?

On the otherhand if one wants to practice islam, there is no place where one cannot. It all depends on ones conviction and faith.

True. It depends a lot on upbringing too.

I think one can become a better muslim when there are challenges because they have to take an active stand in maintaining their faith.

That might be true for adults but, children and teenagers simply don't have the foresight and wisdom to value their faith, in spite of parental guidance.

When one is in a company of five muslim friends who don't observe prayers on time, its harder to get up and pray rather than when one is with five non-muslim friends - I think.

HAHAHAHAHA
So Muslims should avoid each other and live with non-Muslims to be stronger in faith

In my experience, living with 2 Muslims, who are regular in prayers, made me more observant of prayers than when I was living with non-Muslims.

Edited by candid_new - 17 March 2009 at 11:06am

IP Logged

candid_new

Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 11 April 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88

Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:43am

Originally posted by Duende

So has anybody figured out yet what this so-called Western 'culture' is?

Seems we're all falling, nay, gleefully jumping HEADLONG into the imperialist creation/concept of the Clash of Civilisations, or the non-argument of West Versus East.

The happy slapping on of labels ensures we continue blindly on, tripping over our morals and sweeping aside the universal values of humanity in a race to discredit and unfavourably compare the 'other'.

The very premise of the thread is flawed. You can not juxtapose Islamic values with Western 'culture'. It's like comparing a bicycle to a plane. Try again, only this time, try discussing the differences between Islamic values, and those upheld by the likes of Bush/Blair etc., who believe 'they hate our values'.

Please define the values cherished by (for the sake of argument) the American general public, and compare them with the values cherished by the general populace of Morrocco, or Pakistan, as examples of Islamic states. It will quickly become obvious that no matter what your religious beliefs, you cherish the ability to provide safety and shelter to your family, the ability to provide them with nourishment and comfort, and a few enhancements, such as the freedom to enjoy a walk in the park or to listen to music.

The Western decadence, the sinking into the Dantesque level of hell so much of this post-modern existence displays, has nothing whatsoever to do with religion, values or culture, and is far from limited to non-Muslim societies (witness the photos above), it has everything to do with the collective selling of our souls which has been encouraged and promoted, if not in writing, then more powerfully by example.

Still, looks like we'll be forced to take a long hard look in the mirror right about now.

Did you read the links that I posted? Rich Muslims are certainly getting decadent and immoral, but most Muslims are honest and put their faith in God. AFAIK, people in West dismiss religion as superstition.

Edited by candid_new - 17 March 2009 at 10:59am

IP Logged

Shasta'sAunt
Female Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 29 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1930

Posted: 17 March 2009 at 4:30pm

"Don't be silly. If the people are illiterate they won't know how to maintain hygiene, therefore they will have greater health problems. What's the point in having good infrastructure if there are not enough skilled workers that can be employed in the factories."

This actually made me laugh out loud. Illiterate is not the same as st**id and it certainly doesn't equate with filth.

The Prophet Mohammed was illiterate and he was chosen by Allah to spread His message and be the best example of mankind. He also managed to build an empire and keep very clean while doing so.

Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 17 March 2009 at 4:32pm

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

IP Logged

candid_new

Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 11 April 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88

Posted: 17 March 2009 at 5:52pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

"Don't be silly. If the people are illiterate they won't know how to maintain hygiene, therefore they will have greater health problems. What's the point in having good infrastructure if there are not enough skilled workers that can be employed in the factories."

This actually made me laugh out loud. Illiterate is not the same as st**id and it certainly doesn't equate with filth.

The Prophet Mohammed was illiterate and he was chosen by Allah to spread His message and be the best example of mankind. He also managed to build an empire and keep very clean while doing so.

What non-sense!
Illiterate people simply don't have information as to how to maintain basic hygiene. How'll they do it, unless they are taught how to do it? Here in India illiterate people don't use soap and toothpastes. They don't know smoking and drinking is injurious to health. AIDS is widespread in Africa than in developed countries because of prevalence of illiteracy there. Even in US AIDS is more prevalent amongst Blacks because many of them are not adequately educated.

In The Health of Nations, Sagan described studying historical data collected from almost 150 nations spanning the gamut from pre-modem to highly complex post modem societies, searching for the characteristics that would best predict life expectancy. After applying statistical tests to determine which factor(s) appeared to be causal, he found that "by far the most consistently powerful predictor of life expectancy was the prevalence of literacy." The association of literacy and health has been reported repeatedly in analyses of the post World War II decline of mortality in developing countries and of mortality differentials within their populations. The strength and significance of this relationship appear similar across cultural regions and time.

http://db.jhuccp.org/ics-wpd/exec/icswppro.dll?BU=http://db.jhuccp.org/ics-wpd/exec/icswppro.dll&QF0=DocNo&QI0=281034&TN=Popline&AC=QBE_QUERY&MR=30%25DL=1&&RL=1&&RF=LongRecordDisplay&DF=LongRecordDisplay

Edited by candid_new - 17 March 2009 at 9:42pm

IP Logged

Shasta'sAunt
Female Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 29 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1930

Posted: 17 March 2009 at 9:31pm

I am not sure what part of my post you pronounced as nonsense, the fact that illiterate does not necessarily mean dirty or the fact that The Prophet Mohammed was illiterate.

Perhaps these people in India are more interested in the struggle to purchase food than soap and toothpaste. Let's see, brush my teeth, feed my starving baby....... hmmmmmmmmmm

Apparently you have never been to Europe where the literacy rates are very high and lack of oral hygiene runs rampant. You might also be surprised at how many highly educated people live in complete filth.

In fact, living in filth is so prevalent among the highly educated there are TV programs dedicated to showing just how filthy they are. Please see:

Foreign versions

http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/100/index.jsp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Clean_is_Your_House%3F

Notice that there are versions in all of these "high literacy rate" countries:

Foreign versions

Iceland: Allt í drasli
Netherlands: Hoe schoon is jouw Huis?
Belgium: Schoon en Meedogenloos
Finland: Sillä siisti
Croatia: Odred za čistoću
Greece: Αστραφτερά Σπίτια
Romania: Curat Murdar
France: C'est du propre !
Germany: Die Putzteufel - Deutschland macht sauber
Philippines: Pilipinas Instant Bahay Makeover
Poland: Porządek musi być
Sweden: Rent hus
New Zealand: How Clean is Your House?
Hungary: Tiszta a lakásod?
Spain: Qué asco de casa
Norway: Ekstrem Rengjøring

Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 17 March 2009 at 10:02pm

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

IP Logged

candid_new

Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 11 April 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88

Posted: 17 March 2009 at 9:38pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

You and Sagan no doubt know more than Allah.

HAHAHAHA. So, by your logic, Muslims should all be illiterate because Prophet (SAWS) was also illiterate. And also ride camels.

IP Logged

candid_new

Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 11 April 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88

Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:26pm

Originally posted by Chrysalis

Originally posted by candid_new

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Originally posted by candid_new

Higher education is important but it should not be at the cost of primary education of the masses. Primary education is important for reforming the society. Technological advancement is ineffective without social progress.

So when everyone is a high school graduate but there are no doctors or scientists society will progress?

You have comprehension problem, it seems. I suggest you re read what I posted. I said higher education is important, but primary education is more important than higher education. I meant if nearly all the educated people of the country are doctors and engineers, but the literacy rate is low and the masses are ignorant and poor, the country still can't make significant progress.

Thats not neccassarily true. There is no such primary vs higher education formula. You cannot put one up against the other.

India - does not have literacy of the masses - yet has a significant higher educated class, and despite its many faults, seems to be developing.

Phillipines - where the majority are literate, does not seem to be developing/improving like it should.

It also cannot be guaranteed that education will neccassarily eradicate poverty and ignorance.

Population-wise and availability of resources India is more comparable to China than Phil.

IP Logged

Shasta'sAunt
Female Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 29 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1930

Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:37pm

Originally posted by candid_new

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

You and Sagan no doubt know more than Allah.

HAHAHAHA. So, by your logic, Muslims should all be illiterate because Prophet (SAWS) was also illiterate. And also ride camels.

I'm not the one stereotyping here.

Candid's greatest hits:

illiterate people are dirty

black people are uneducated

westerners are overly materialistic, decadent, immoral, and believe religion to be a burden

rich Muslims are decadent and immoral

Israel and America are evil

Pakistanis "Majority of the people are illiterate. They have limited access to information and hence, they can't think for themselves."

Indians are hypocrits, filthy, and fascists

European women are selfish and materialistic

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

IP Logged

	Active Topics Memberlist Calendar Search Help
	Register Login Old Forum

General Islamic Matter
IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : General Islamic Matter

Topic: Islamic values and Western 'culture'
	<< Prev Page of 9 Next >>

Author	Message
candid_new Groupie Joined: 11 April 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 88	Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:30am
	*Originally posted by Nausheen* Being westernised is a problem, but its not the only problem that challenges a muslim - neither do I see it as a lot bigger than other challenges. Yes. Our greatest problem is lack of education. It weakens our ability to communicate. I am surprised you made no mention of our unwillingness to selflessly help poor Muslims in need, as one of our most serious weaknesses. Perhaps, our next greatest problem. To think one's faith is safe if they are not westernised, is just and image of safety - that is all. Who thinks so? On the otherhand if one wants to practice islam, there is no place where one cannot. It all depends on ones conviction and faith. True. It depends a lot on upbringing too. I think one can become a better muslim when there are challenges because they have to take an active stand in maintaining their faith. That might be true for adults but, children and teenagers simply don't have the foresight and wisdom to value their faith, in spite of parental guidance. When one is in a company of five muslim friends who don't observe prayers on time, its harder to get up and pray rather than when one is with five non-muslim friends - I think. HAHAHAHAHA So Muslims should avoid each other and live with non-Muslims to be stronger in faith In my experience, living with 2 Muslims, who are regular in prayers, made me more observant of prayers than when I was living with non-Muslims. Edited by candid_new - 17 March 2009 at 11:06am
	IP Logged

candid_new Groupie Joined: 11 April 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 88	Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:43am
	*Originally posted by Duende* So has anybody figured out yet what this so-called Western 'culture' is? Seems we're all falling, nay, gleefully jumping HEADLONG into the imperialist creation/concept of the Clash of Civilisations, or the non-argument of West Versus East. The happy slapping on of labels ensures we continue blindly on, tripping over our morals and sweeping aside the universal values of humanity in a race to discredit and unfavourably compare the 'other'. The very premise of the thread is flawed. You can not juxtapose Islamic values with Western 'culture'. It's like comparing a bicycle to a plane. Try again, only this time, try discussing the differences between Islamic values, and those upheld by the likes of Bush/Blair etc., who believe 'they hate our values'. Please define the values cherished by (for the sake of argument) the American general public, and compare them with the values cherished by the general populace of Morrocco, or Pakistan, as examples of Islamic states. It will quickly become obvious that no matter what your religious beliefs, you cherish the ability to provide safety and shelter to your family, the ability to provide them with nourishment and comfort, and a few enhancements, such as the freedom to enjoy a walk in the park or to listen to music. The Western decadence, the sinking into the Dantesque level of hell so much of this post-modern existence displays, has nothing whatsoever to do with religion, values or culture, and is far from limited to non-Muslim societies (witness the photos above), it has everything to do with the collective selling of our souls which has been encouraged and promoted, if not in writing, then more powerfully by example. Still, looks like we'll be forced to take a long hard look in the mirror right about now. Did you read the links that I posted? Rich Muslims are certainly getting decadent and immoral, but most Muslims are honest and put their faith in God. AFAIK, people in West dismiss religion as superstition. Edited by candid_new - 17 March 2009 at 10:59am
	IP Logged

Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 17 March 2009 at 4:30pm
	"Don't be silly. If the people are illiterate they won't know how to maintain hygiene, therefore they will have greater health problems. What's the point in having good infrastructure if there are not enough skilled workers that can be employed in the factories." This actually made me laugh out loud. Illiterate is not the same as st**id and it certainly doesn't equate with filth. The Prophet Mohammed was illiterate and he was chosen by Allah to spread His message and be the best example of mankind. He also managed to build an empire and keep very clean while doing so. Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 17 March 2009 at 4:32pm
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
	IP Logged

candid_new Groupie Joined: 11 April 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 88	Posted: 17 March 2009 at 5:52pm
	*Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* "Don't be silly. If the people are illiterate they won't know how to maintain hygiene, therefore they will have greater health problems. What's the point in having good infrastructure if there are not enough skilled workers that can be employed in the factories." This actually made me laugh out loud. Illiterate is not the same as st**id and it certainly doesn't equate with filth. The Prophet Mohammed was illiterate and he was chosen by Allah to spread His message and be the best example of mankind. He also managed to build an empire and keep very clean while doing so. What non-sense! Illiterate people simply don't have information as to how to maintain basic hygiene. How'll they do it, unless they are taught how to do it? Here in India illiterate people don't use soap and toothpastes. They don't know smoking and drinking is injurious to health. AIDS is widespread in Africa than in developed countries because of prevalence of illiteracy there. Even in US AIDS is more prevalent amongst Blacks because many of them are not adequately educated. In The Health of Nations, Sagan described studying historical data collected from almost 150 nations spanning the gamut from pre-modem to highly complex post modem societies, searching for the characteristics that would best predict life expectancy. After applying statistical tests to determine which factor(s) appeared to be causal, he found that "by far the most consistently powerful predictor of life expectancy was the prevalence of literacy." The association of literacy and health has been reported repeatedly in analyses of the post World War II decline of mortality in developing countries and of mortality differentials within their populations. The strength and significance of this relationship appear similar across cultural regions and time. http://db.jhuccp.org/ics-wpd/exec/icswppro.dll?BU=http://db.jhuccp.org/ics-wpd/exec/icswppro.dll&QF0=DocNo&QI0=281034&TN=Popline&AC=QBE_QUERY&MR=30%25DL=1&&RL=1&&RF=LongRecordDisplay&DF=LongRecordDisplay Edited by candid_new - 17 March 2009 at 9:42pm
	IP Logged

Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 17 March 2009 at 9:31pm
	I am not sure what part of my post you pronounced as nonsense, the fact that illiterate does not necessarily mean dirty or the fact that The Prophet Mohammed was illiterate. Perhaps these people in India are more interested in the struggle to purchase food than soap and toothpaste. Let's see, brush my teeth, feed my starving baby....... hmmmmmmmmmm Apparently you have never been to Europe where the literacy rates are very high and lack of oral hygiene runs rampant. You might also be surprised at how many highly educated people live in complete filth. In fact, living in filth is so prevalent among the highly educated there are TV programs dedicated to showing just how filthy they are. Please see: Foreign versions http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/100/index.jsp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Clean_is_Your_House%3F Notice that there are versions in all of these "high literacy rate" countries: Foreign versions Iceland: Allt í drasli Netherlands: Hoe schoon is jouw Huis? Belgium: Schoon en Meedogenloos Finland: Sillä siisti Croatia: Odred za čistoću Greece: Αστραφτερά Σπίτια Romania: Curat Murdar France: C'est du propre ! Germany: Die Putzteufel - Deutschland macht sauber Philippines: Pilipinas Instant Bahay Makeover Poland: Porządek musi być Sweden: Rent hus New Zealand: How Clean is Your House? Hungary: Tiszta a lakásod? Spain: Qué asco de casa Norway: Ekstrem Rengjøring Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 17 March 2009 at 10:02pm
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
	IP Logged

candid_new Groupie Joined: 11 April 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 88	Posted: 17 March 2009 at 9:38pm
	*Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* You and Sagan no doubt know more than Allah. HAHAHAHA. So, by your logic, Muslims should all be illiterate because Prophet (SAWS) was also illiterate. And also ride camels.
	IP Logged

candid_new Groupie Joined: 11 April 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 88	Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:26pm
	*Originally posted by Chrysalis* *Originally posted by candid_new* *Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* *Originally posted by candid_new* Higher education is important but it should not be at the cost of primary education of the masses. Primary education is important for reforming the society. Technological advancement is ineffective without social progress. So when everyone is a high school graduate but there are no doctors or scientists society will progress? You have comprehension problem, it seems. I suggest you re read what I posted. I said higher education is important, but primary education is more important than higher education. I meant if nearly all the educated people of the country are doctors and engineers, but the literacy rate is low and the masses are ignorant and poor, the country still can't make significant progress. Thats not neccassarily true. There is no such primary vs higher education formula. You cannot put one up against the other. India - does not have literacy of the masses - yet has a significant higher educated class, and despite its many faults, seems to be developing. Phillipines - where the majority are literate, does not seem to be developing/improving like it should. It also cannot be guaranteed that education will neccassarily eradicate poverty and ignorance. Population-wise and availability of resources India is more comparable to China than Phil.
	IP Logged

Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:37pm
	*Originally posted by candid_new* *Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* You and Sagan no doubt know more than Allah. HAHAHAHA. So, by your logic, Muslims should all be illiterate because Prophet (SAWS) was also illiterate. And also ride camels. I'm not the one stereotyping here. Candid's greatest hits: illiterate people are dirty black people are uneducated westerners are overly materialistic, decadent, immoral, and believe religion to be a burden rich Muslims are decadent and immoral Israel and America are evil Pakistanis "Majority of the people are illiterate. They have limited access to information and hence, they can't think for themselves." Indians are hypocrits, filthy, and fascists European women are selfish and materialistic
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
	IP Logged