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Interfaith Dialogue
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Apollos
 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 18 March 2009 at 8:30pm

Posted by Ron Webb:

As for the resurrection, if Jesus was seen up and walking around after the crucifiction, my first assumption would be the same as for anyone else --  that he didn't die.

Apollos:

For the sake of brevity I am willing to limit the historical facts to the 12 core ones I mentioned but if you reject even this minimal historical scholarship, I don’t think we have much to discuss on what is historical about Jesus. All scholars agree that Jesus was crucified and died.

 

Posted by Ron Webb:
But it's not unusual for eyewitnesses to be mistaken, especially if they claim to see what they fervently want to see.  How many eyewitnesses are there who would claim that Elvis is still alive?

 

Apollos:
The eyewitnesses didn’t claim they saw the risen Jesus at a distance or only once. Their disposition was one of despair not expectation. Your analogy is completely wrong and again, contrary to critical historical scholarship.
 
Ron - In answering your questions I am trying to appeal to some common ground as a starting place but I don’t know what that might be. Are you an atheist? An agnostic? A Mormon? Please clarify so I can understand your reference point

 



Edited by Apollos - 19 March 2009 at 5:57am
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Apollos
 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 18 March 2009 at 8:36pm

Posted by Nur_Ilahi:

The proof that we Muslims can bring forward is the Quran. Nothing else. This is the miracle of Muhammad given by God AlMighty that transcend the past, the present and the future. Original, Authentic, without contradiction or anyone's tampering.

 

From Apollos:

In what way is the Quran objectively different than any other human writing? The qualities you mention are subjective criteria and can be found in Shakespear, Dr. Seus or the New York times. 



Edited by Apollos - 19 March 2009 at 5:55am
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2009 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Apollos

Posted by Nur_Ilahi:

The proof that we Muslims can bring forward is the Quran. Nothing else. This is the miracle of Muhammad given by God AlMighty that transcend the past, the present and the future. Original, Authentic, without contradiction or anyone's tampering.

 

From Apollos:

In what way is the Quran objectively different than any other human writing? The qualities you mention are subjective criteria and can be found in Shakespear, Dr. Seus or the New York times. 

 
Apollo,
 
of those you mentioned are bound to time, culture, region and so on, plus those are not sources of guidance. Plus they are bound to alterations and corrections, and outdated with time. The Quran is without those limits. And most of all Quran is a book of guidance that takes a person from wandering in vanities to the reality of their existance which does not end with death as one may think, rather becomes a reality after that. A reality that is like a tree who's fruit will depend what seed one soe now, in this life.
 
I will insist you to read a good translation of the Quran, done by a Muslim. And, unless you are paid to agrue, I gurantee, you will never agrue with a Muslim again about their belief, even if you decided after that to stick with your own belief.
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 19 March 2009 at 1:35pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Apollos
 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2009 at 1:58pm

Posted by Nur_Ilahi:

 

 
I will insist you to read a good translation of the Quran, done by a Muslim. And, unless you are paid to agrue, I gurantee, you will never agrue with a Muslim again about their belief, even if you decided after that to stick with your own belief.
 
Hasan
 
From Apollos
 
Hasan,
 
I have read the Quran many years ago and it was a translation by a Muslim. My concluding opinion is quite different than yours. In fact I am trying now to see how Muslims make sense of the Quran because it seems like a rambling, disorganized, crude writing to me. I am looking for Muslims who read Arabic to explain how what they see has been lost in the English translations that I read. 
 
BTW - What would your guarantee be? Would you pay me money or refund the time I spent reading the Quran? I gather you were just using an expression of speech but your confidence is misplaced.
 
Apollos
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2009 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

The proof that we Muslims can bring forward is the Quran. Nothing else. This is the miracle of Muhammad given by God AlMighty that transcend the past, the present and the future. Original, Authentic, without contradiction or anyone's tampering.
 
But how do you know it came from God?  Just hypothetically, if it came from Satan instead, how would you know the difference?
 
The Quran tells us to worship God and remember Him and seek His pleasure in all that we do. Fast, give in charity, treat others with respect and love, embrace humility and avoid pride and arrogance, be patient and perservering, struggle within yourself to defeat that which destroys your humanity and spirituality, and to be aware of every action and deed that we do and all of us are responsible for said deeds/actions because we will be judged accordingly, no free passes.
 
What does The Quran instruct us to do that could be considered Satanic?
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2009 at 2:57pm
Apollos:
The eyewitnesses didn’t claim they saw the risen Jesus at a distance or only once. Their disposition was one of despair not expectation. Your analogy is completely wrong and again, contrary to critical historical scholarship.
 
As I posted earlier, the resurrected Jesus was not even recognised until he identified himself.
Since Jesus prophesied to his followers that he would rise in three days, I fail to see why they were in despair, why they weren't expecting him,  and why they didn't recognise him when on the third day he was supposedly walking around.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2009 at 4:06pm
"In fact I am trying now to see how Muslims make sense of the Quran because it seems like a rambling, disorganized, crude writing to me."
 
As opposed to a book full of incest, drunkeness, fornication, deceit, and murder where the reader can choose between several versions of the same stories and THE major plot twist where the main character turns out to be not just one, as he asserts over and over, but three, yes three different characters.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2009 at 6:42pm

Originally posted by Apollos

For the sake of brevity I am willing to limit the historical facts to the 12 core ones I mentioned but if you reject even this minimal historical scholarship, I don’t think we have much to discuss on what is historical about Jesus. All scholars agree that Jesus was crucified and died.

Well, not the Muslim scholars for sure.  But I'm getting the feeling that only Christian theologians qualify as "scholars" for you.

Many years ago I heard a radio program that discussed the hypothesis that Jesus didn't actually die during the crucifixion.  They mentioned that dentists are taught about a phenomenon they call an "upright faint".  Normally if you faint, you fall down, blood rushes to your head and you revive more or less automatically.  When you are held upright (e.g. in a dentist's chair, or nailed to a cross), this doesn't happen, and you can lapse into a deeply unconscious state which may be mistaken for death.  It's always seemed like the most logical explanation to me.

I went searching for that information on the Internet, and didn't find it; but instead I found a BBC documentary program called "Did Jesus Die?"  There is a Web page for it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/did-jesus-die.shtml, and if your bandwidth can handle a 670 MB download (mine can't, unfortunately) I think you can watch it or download it here: http://docuwiki.net/index.php?title=Did_Jesus_Die .  Here's a piece of the interview with the director, Richard Denton:

BBC Four: How do you think he might have survived crucifixion?
RD: Crucifixion took up to three days; the maximum he was on the cross for was nine hours, it might even have been six. And even if you read the gospels Pontius Pilate is clearly surprised that he's already dead and wants to be reassured by the centurion that he really is dead. My personal take on it would be that he goes into a shock induced coma, and probably they thought he was dead.
...
BBC Four: What actually prompted you to start exploring this topic?
RD: I was intrigued because most academic theologians and intelligent churchmen, or a very significant number of them, do not believe that the resurrection is the literal truth. It's a metaphor to tell us that there is hope. Whilst not saying that it's a literal truth they don't actually say it's a lie, but if you're saying something's not literal truth then you are saying it's a lie. I was shocked that none of the people we interviewed, with the exception of the Cannon of Westminster, believed it was true. Yet if they don't think it's true what on earth do they think is the motivation behind writing the story in the Bible?

 
Originally posted by Apollos

Ron - In answering your questions I am trying to appeal to some common ground as a starting place but I don’t know what that might be. Are you an atheist? An agnostic? A Mormon? Please clarify so I can understand your reference point

First and foremost I call myself a freethinker.  I also consider myself an atheist, but I stay away from that term because too often it leads to tedious arguments about how I can "prove" that God doesn't exist.  (As if Christians etc. can't call themselves that unless they can "prove" that He does.)

P.S.: Oh, and I should also mention "secular humanist", because I am more and more attracted to that term.  I don't believe in God, but I do believe in humankind.
 
P.P.S.: I also need to correct a spelling error: "crucifixion", not "crucifiction".  I'm normally very good with spelling.  Must have been a Freudian slip. LOL


Edited by Ron Webb - 19 March 2009 at 7:12pm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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