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Interfaith Dialogue
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Apollos
 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2009 at 12:11pm

You (Apollos) wrote:  “It is clear to anyone reading these that He was either identifying the underlying principal of the previous commandment or He was creating a new commandment that took the old one to a new level. Either way, He was not reversing a commandment but amplifying it.”

(From Serv):

 Here, then, is a difference, and not one only of semantics.  I don’t think that negating the thesis amplifies it.   I think that negating the thesis creates the antithesis.  As I read it, Moses stated the thesis and Jesus stated the antithesis (see above).            

(From Apollos):

Servetis -
I understand that you see this as a thesis and antithesis scenario but unless you intentionally want to ignore the context of the sermon Jesus is giving, I don’t see why you should. In this sermon on the mount Jesus makes a transition from the Blessed are the meek, etc. to this part where He tells them: “Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled.” (The Greek word translated as “fulfill” means complete, perfect, finish, etc.). He then goes on to warn against relaxing (loosen, break, destroy) any of these commandments. After this intro He gives four examples of the Law that He clearly amplifies. Following the same pattern of “You have heard it said – but I tell .. ”, Jesus says: You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."  But I say to you, Do not resist evil. But whoever shall strike you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. And to him desiring to sue you, and to take away your tunic, let him have your coat also. whoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two.  Give to him who asks of you, and you shall not turn away from him who would borrow from you.

 

From the introduction and context of the preceding amplifications, it would seem quite odd for Jesus to contradict Himself and actually do what He had just warned against doing. I give Him at least the same benefit of the doubt I would any speaker or writer and investigate the details before assuming the worst. When one does investigate the details I think the conclusion is that Moses commanded a limit on recompense not a minimum.

 

But let’s say I am wrong. Let’s say that Jesus was repealing this Law, as He replaced it with a higher standard of Grace. Ultimately that is what He preached – That we humans can’t attain to the Law in principal or outward show. Would such a change amount to destroying the Law or perfecting the Law? If it is the former, the Old Testament has more explaining to do than the New Testament. For God in the Old Testament allowed David to live after he had killed Uriah and committed adultery with his wife. He instructed the prophet Hosea to marry a harlot or a woman who became a harlot and not put her to death – in order that God dramatize the sin of the Jewish nation. These and other examples lead me to conclude that God’s Grace fulfills/completes/perfects the Law of God without destroying it.

(From Serv):

Please allow me to put it in practical, logical rather than theological, but still hypothetical terms.  Forget all else and accept, for now, that there are two primary laws, or statements of law, on the books, one by Moses and the other by Jesus:

(Moses)“If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.”

(Jesus)“You have heard that it was said [by Moses], ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.  If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

I am the aggrieved party (plaintiff) standing before you, the sole judge, jury and, if necessary, executioner.  The defendant has, hours before, in a fit of fury and for no legitimate reason, punched me in the face and knocked out one of my teeth.  How do you judge the case and dispense justice according to both Moses and Jesus (using these and related verses) and what, in the end, becomes of the defendant?  What, if any, punishment is meted to the perpetrator of the crime?  Answering that might provide a workable synthesis.

(From Apollos):

Serv –

You ask a good question but I think the stage is missing some elements. Actually Jesus described a similar setting in some of His parables and stories and He made you both the judge and plaintiff. He then added a Supreme Judge over you and described a situation where your decision toward the one who has harmed you will be used as the measurement for how you will be treated. If you demand justice, justice will be demanded of you. If you give forgiveness and grace, these will be given to you. As long as you see only look at the horizontal plane, you might imagine yourself as a plaintiff. When/if you can see yourself in the vertical plane, you will see that God is the plaintiff and we need grace not justice.

Apollos

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Sign*Reader
 
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2009 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Servetus

 

Please allow me to put it in practical, logical rather than theological, but still hypothetical terms.  Forget all else and accept, for now, that there are two primary laws, or statements of law, on the books, one by Moses and the other by Jesus:

(Moses)“If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.”

(Jesus)“You have heard that it was said [by Moses], ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.  If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

I am the aggrieved party (plaintiff) standing before you, the sole judge, jury and, if necessary, executioner.  The defendant has, hours before, in a fit of fury and for no legitimate reason, punched me in the face and knocked out one of my teeth.  How do you judge the case and dispense justice according to both Moses and Jesus (using these and related verses) and what, in the end, becomes of the defendant?  What, if any, punishment is meted to the perpetrator of the crime?  Answering that might provide a workable synthesis.

 

Thank you.

 

Serv



Hello Serv:
You may not get a straight answer from out friend Apollos
Originally posted by Apollos

If you demand justice, justice will be demanded of you.If you give forgiveness and grace, these will be given to you.
about your dilemma ...
I would like to offer the synthesis the LAW of RETALIATION AND EQUALITY:
42:40 (Y. Ali) The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah. for ((Allah)) loveth not those who do wrong.

Here Allah has given the rights to the plaintiff with justice and grace back to back unambiguously!
As a matter fact no injustice be let go unresolved for the sake of physical well being of the society in general and spiritual health in particular! The current economic abyss is good example between these two schools of thought of man made laws and lawlessness..........

17:33 (Y. Ali) Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand recompense  or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).





Edited by Sign*Reader - 17 March 2009 at 3:16pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2009 at 3:38pm

Apollos wrote:  “You [Servetus] ask a good question but I think the stage is missing some elements.”

Yes.  It was probably scrubbed too bare.     

Apollos wrote:  “Actually Jesus described a similar setting in some of His parables and stories and He made you both the judge and plaintiff. He then added a Supreme Judge over you and described a situation where your decision toward the one who has harmed you will be used as the measurement for how you will be treated. If you demand justice, justice will be demanded of you. If you give forgiveness and grace, these will be given to you. As long as you see only look at the horizontal plane, you might imagine yourself as a plaintiff. When/if you can see yourself in the vertical plane you will see that God is the plaintiff and we need grace not justice.

Bravo, Apollos!  That is a fine and insightful synthesis.  Thank you.

Sign-Reader wrote:  “I would like to offer the synthesis the LAW of RETALIATION AND EQUALITY:
42:40 (Y. Ali) The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah. for ((Allah)) loveth not those who do wrong.

17:33
(Y. Ali) Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand recompense  or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).”

Well said (quoted)!  Your timing is also excellent.  The thing that, from the beginning, was up my sleeve (but which may now seem at best anticlimactic when put on the table Embarrassed) was exactly this and I was about to ask Muslims for their input, to see if they could produce a synthesis (as you have).  I had never really seen, or read, a synthesis between Moses and Jesus, at least not as seamlessly as Apollos clearly has, until I read this, from the Quran, and I thought, wrongly it turns out, that I could offer it as something in the nature of a proof:

“We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.” (Quran 5:45)

Oh well.  I thank everyone in this thread for contributing to my understanding and I do furthermore apologize if I took us on an unnecessary tangent.

Serv

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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2009 at 4:01pm

Serv,

A rather enlightening tangent.
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2009 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Serv,
A rather enlightening tangent.
 
 
Servetus rarely, if ever, disappoints.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2009 at 7:16pm

Originally posted by Apollos

I think I was clear in opening post. The "magical" claim Christians make is that Jesus fulfilled prophecy and rose from the dead and this provides Him with credentials above any other person. There is historical evidence supporting this claim and none supporting an alternate theory. Refute the resurrection and I will concede that no one has met the burden of proof I am addressing here.
 
You apparently discount the resurrection of Jesus. If so, can you explain why - on a scientific, logical, philosophical or historical basis?

As I said in that other topic (http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14279&PID=123439#123439), the prophecies are weak to the point of meaninglessness.

As for the resurrection, if Jesus was seen up and walking around after the crucifiction, my first assumption would be the same as for anyone else --  that he didn't die.

But it's not unusual for eyewitnesses to be mistaken, especially if they claim to see what they fervently want to see.  How many eyewitnesses are there who would claim that Elvis is still alive?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Apollos

 
Nur Ilahi,
 
In saying Jesus was not perfect, you have just made another unfounded assertions. In claiming that Mohammed is the benchmark Jesus should be judged by, you are not only being offensive you are ignoring the miracles of Jesus as proof that He is from God. What proof is there that Mohammed was from God?
 
Apollos
 
I am not trying to be offensive Apollos. I am just being factual. I am not denying that Jesus was from God (as also you and me), but just that if you compare Jesus and Muhammad, as a human being (of course they are human beings) you cannot find a better man than Muhammad that ever lived.
 
Take for example in these days you need original, authentic identification wherever you go. You need a birth ceritifcate that shows that you are the son of so and so, you need a driving licence that says you had passed your driving test, you need your ceritificates for whatever  courses that you had passed, be it a Degree, a Master, a PhD. In other words, the authentic and original solid proofs.
 
The proof that we Muslims can bring forward is the Quran. Nothing else. This is the miracle of Muhammad given by God AlMighty that transcend the past, the present and the future. Original, Authentic, without contradiction or anyone's tampering.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 18 March 2009 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

The proof that we Muslims can bring forward is the Quran. Nothing else. This is the miracle of Muhammad given by God AlMighty that transcend the past, the present and the future. Original, Authentic, without contradiction or anyone's tampering.
 
But how do you know it came from God?  Just hypothetically, if it came from Satan instead, how would you know the difference?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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